Live Sound Engineering Tutor?

Qu Qu General Discussions
21

Hey All
Embarrassed? Nah, I’m never embarrassed.
As people request knowing more, I shall divulge

3 piece rock (ish) band
1 x electic guitar amp - Mic’d with an SM57
1 x bass amp - DI’d
1 x lead vocal while playing bass - AKG D5 (Thats me) - At front of stage
1 x lead vocal while playing guitar - Sontronics STC-80 - At front of stage
Drums - All drums individually mic’d (Including overheads) but I cant remember what mics the drummer uses - At rear of stage

2 x Yamaha MSR400 tops
1 x Yamaha MSR800 sub
QU16
Qu-Pad

Speaker deployment: What do you mean as in where do I put the speakers? - Further towards the audience than the mics. Pointing inwards a little towards the dancefloor.
DSP - What do you want to know?
Usual size of venue: Never really any larger than 10m x 15m
Usual number of guests: Under 150
Usual venues/types of gigs: Wedding/Birthday/Corporate at wedding reception halls, conference centres, marquees etc etc.
Usual position at venue: Tucked into a corner, but I will always try to get the client to have the band instead be at the one end of the room, playing out the full length of the room.

Notes:
I usually mic everthing so we can record the band live.
I dont always put everything through the PA.
Vocally we had been using SM58s all our lives until we found the D5 and STC-80 had such better presence and clarity.
We all use IEMs.
We don’t play overly loud (We play to the volume of the drummer whose not a massive hitter)
I dont have my QU16 in front of me now as its stored away. (But can pull it out if requested)
Pretty much once the soundcheck mix is done, thats it locked in unless I feel like uping the volume of the vocals later in the set.
I dont know what the term “GBF threshold” means, nor a lot of terminology that is spoken on here as I am self taught in everything Ive ever done in my life after leaving school many moons ago.
I would prefer to know how to not have these issues/deal with them myself than buy something that will work, but just mask the issue. Must that PA2 does sound like a great bit of kit)
Ive always seemed to have had trouble with spill from the drums and guitar amp coming through the vocal mics when someone isnt standing in front of them.

So there you go…
BTW should I NOT be using gates on vocal mics?

Cheers

22

“GBF”=Gain Before Feedback.

Knowing what DSP you have on each input/output is going to play a big part in what the forum can offer as possible solutions. What are your EQ settings for vocals? How much compression are you using on kick/snare/vocals/outputs? Can you upload your show file for QU users to inspect?

IMHO, if I were mixing from the stage, I would stay away from gates on everything but toms and possibly kick/snare. If your drummer plays softly or dynamically, gates are more trouble than they are worth. I would also make sure to only cut/compress content (e.g. cut frequencies vs. boosting frequencies, compress but do not use make-up gain, etc.). Without an extra set of ears at FOH, boosting/adding anything is risky. I would also use short delay and reverb with all FX returns EQ’d with a HPF around 250-350Hz and a LPF around 4-6kHz. That is where I would start.

Again, seeing your show file might reveal a completely unrelated issue that is causing feedback.

23
So there you go…. BTW should I NOT be using gates on vocal mics?

BINGO!!!

24

“So there you go….
BTW should I NOT be using gates on vocal mics?”

BINGO!!!

I had to add another reply as the “edit” function times out…

I fear what has happened as that you took MarkPAmans suggestion of using an Optogate and figured any gate would do. NOT SO!!!

Even an Optogate presents problems in that, although it is activated by the physical presence of the vocalist, when the gated mic “slams” open (as is the nature of hard gates…nada to infinity instantly) you get a lot of ambient sound in a rush even though your physical presence may occlude PART of the sound.

ANY kind of gate in live vocal performance is generally a no-no. Things like this are meant for unattended presenters mics for speeches, church sermons, etc…NOT live sound on stage.

Dump the gates. Then you can start to work on the REAL problem(s).

25

I think folks realized that you had asked if anyone local to you could help you learn, but the comments here, with the limited information you gave were attempts to help you out meanwhile - assuming you might not find anyone to help you right a way - if at all. My comment assumed you needed help becoming familiar with using the processing as you had said you had ‘very basic skills as a sound engineer’ but I also suggested setting up everything the way you do live when you have plenty of time and spend some time with the system in a live setting as ‘practice makes perfect’. It is easier to tame feedback as and when it occurs and to take note of what you did to stop it so the live setting could still be of benefit to you whilst you gain knowledge from others and what you might read. Guidance and education are essential but spending the time to try different things would benefit you.

26

Fx channels HPF at 250-350 would make for some pretty thin sounds. Especially verb. IMHO. But that’s decades of studio preference coming out. Plus a ton of live work. I want some fullness. Natural verb has low end.

27

I would agree for the most part. My personal preference is still to HPF the FX return around 150Hz, but it depends on the situation.

My previous suggestion was intended as a conservative approach. If I were dealing with feedback while mixing onstage, I would look for ways to eliminate low and high frequency transients that could cause or create the sense of instability in the mix.

It has been said before, but using feedback supressors or gates is a poor way to manage GBF…better to have all channels wide open and stable. Use those tools only as a last resort or for artistic preference (e.g. gate drums for a tighter mix…not to manage feedback).

28

Hi all
As requested here is a SHOW FILE (Ziped) from my last decent sounding show.
Please note that there ARE gates on vocals etc (Which I am now no longer using)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i6koaugqwm71mx9/SHOW0000.zip?dl=0

Let me know if youd like to know anythign else.

Thanks

29

Have a look at the first of these:

30

Hi Mark
Great idea, but its way to far away from me I’m afraid.
Plus I LOATHE London. :slight_smile:

31

For tutoring, Howard Williams at Base Sound in Stroud may be able to help and he has QU gear as well.

32

Hi Keef
Thats looks great. I’ll get in touch with them.

33

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but just in case anyone looks again, I can thoroughly recommend Howard at Basesound.

I am in the same boat as the OP, in that I play guitar and run the sound for the band I play in. I have been doing this pretty much by trial and error and what I could find on YouTube and other online resources.

I have just been on the 2 day course and it was very informative and I learnt a lot. He initially teaches everything on an old analogue desk as it is easier to understand the routing etc and then moved on to demonstrate the same things on a Qu-24. It was this that made me take the plunge and buy a Qu-16 (which, hopefully, I will pick up tomorrow). I have then also booked myself a 1 to 1 session with him to delve into the Qu-16 in more depth.

34

I got into mixing because every gig I played (guitar player here) people would say I sure wish I could hear your guitar or why does it sound so harsh…etc… I eventually got fed up and purchased my own system and dedicated years of learning how to run it correctly.

I had a few wise guys hook up a graphic EQ on the Main Out and for hours have their head buried in the thing NOT paying attention to the band.

My thoughts were "Was is this piece of gear that deserves so much attention? Why does this sound system DEPEND on the EQ… I very quickly decided I hated graphic EQ’ and they cannot possible be the answer to good sound… Man was my hunch correct…

My point here is that your system has many components and there could be multiple things going on… Does every piece of gear do what it is supposed to do? Have you verified that the Polarity on every cable, every speaker is correct? A positive impulse on a Positive terminal causes the speaker to move forward?

When your drummer hits his kick - does the sub woofer actually move forward? Not talking about cardioid or multiple speakers systems here where inverted polarity is the exception…

Is your gain structure correct? So when your mixer approaches the clip point every other piece of gear in the chain approaches the clip point?

Do you know what the frequency response of your system? If you don’t know what the frequency response of your system is - how are you going to know what to do with it?

Are the tops and subs time aligned? Is the crossover set correctly?

When you walk up to your mixer you are going to want music to be coming through the PA to sound decent and intelligence with NO EQ on the music channel engaged. If it doesn’t sound good that way - then you will have to go to your MAIN EQ and make some changes…

If the system is set up correctly - all you have to account for when the system is taken into a room is what the room did to the system… Go to the Main EQ and make the changes. Once that is done - you can then begin to mix on the channels.

I hope this makes sense… You cannot mix your way out of a poorly set up sound system.

Dave Rat has a great video on how to do this… I recommend you watch and give this a try… I do it all the time with great success… However, I first learned to set up systems correctly through Rational Acoustics… SMAART program. That way when I did mix - I had a great canvas to work with.

35

Here’s another shout out for Howard at Base Sound. Had a 121 session with him on Thursday and found it incredibly useful. It’s great to know that you’re doing at least some things right, and equally important to get pro insight into the things you could be doing a lot better (or even wrong!). Howard is patient, very professional and understands what you’re looking to get out of the session - he listens. Can’t recommend him highly enough.