Hey!
I would also like to see, is there any signal in DCA metering. I have made many musicals with X32/M32 and this is good information to see, is signal up or not.
Some mode ideas for DCA metering:
A. Signal - shows only with one LED (green) that, is there any signal - DEFAULT
B. Hottest - shows hottest peaks
C. Avarage - shows avarage peaks (slower) - Avarage is not summing audio, just calc. by channel meters. (if this is possible and not take much CPU)
Had the same concern. Even if not the metering, At least some kind of indication that signal is there would be really helpful while working on large events.
Can anyone name a desk that has dca via MCA metering apart from the one named above. Just interested. Never come across it myself in o or twenty years of live mixing
Yamaha CL & QL for sure. Probably the M7 as well.
A&H should just implement it the same way Yamaha has. It’s a post-fade sum of signal levels from the channels assigned to that DCA. Extremely easy to implement in software.
Listening to the DCA buses with PAFL has always been possible.
This signal could be evaluated for a level display, that would be enough.
Listening to the DCA buses with PAFL has always been possible.
Sorry, but you missing a point. I need to see 12 meters at a same time, not hiting PAFL.
C. Avarage – shows avarage peaks (slower) – Avarage is not summing audio, just calc. by channel meters. (if this is possible and not take much CPU)
what you think what the meters do?
They measure a value, if you need to calculate a value for a bus, you have to sum the signals to calculate correctly
DCA metering wiLl not work in all cases, since you can control a channel with multiple DCA
so the desk has to calculate 24 DCA meterings, always…
I would prefer a peak detection and signal present, that’s it what makes the most sense
A&H should just implement it the same way Yamaha has. It’s a post-fade sum of signal levels from the channels assigned to that DCA. Extremely easy to implement in software.
where did you get the information from?
Sorry, but you missing a point. I need to see 12 meters at a same time, not hiting PAFL.
that’s correct.
but what i wanted to point out is the fact that the pick-up point in the DCAs is already there in principle, here “only” the level values have to be read out.
it is of course possible that you still have a lot of work to do in the background to program this accordingly. i don’t have any insight into which steps are necessary.
but it should be possible.
Mr.X: Read my post on the previous page. If I had a quid for every time someone said in an unqualified statement that something was “easy to implement”, I’d be a rich man.
I’m not sure what metering the “hottest” signal would tell the user, the level doesn’t mean anything useful. However I agree the peak LED is a totally different consideration. It could be analogous to the layer keys peaking, alerting the user something is wrong and requires investigation.
DC
I’m not sure what metering the “hottest” signal would tell the user, the level doesn’t mean anything useful. ....
If to use one DCA then of course this doesn’t mean anything useful. But when to use like 12 DCA-s on the same layer, then this will be very useful information for fast troubleshooting.
But it would be super if at least there is a signal LED.
Mr.X: Read my post on the previous page. If I had a quid for every time someone said in an unqualified statement that something was “easy to implement”, I’d be a rich man.
Well, I’m afraid you’re not going to get rich this time. 
Here’s the qualification: It’s much easier than the summing that happens when you PFL a DCA, because the audio doesn’t need to be summed as it would be for a PFL (summing the audio is a more complex function). Only the channel levels need to be added, which are available for all channels at all times (see the meter page). Just simple addition of the numbers that are the AFL levels of the channels, that’s it. I am a programmer, and integer sums are probably one of the simplest operations a computer can do.
well… @DavidCo
metering the hottest signal means that you can see if there is a signal or not
maybe you got a different solution?
The solution is to implement the same functionality that Yamaha and Behringer do. As I say, it’s incredibly simple to do.
I’m all for the DCA metering. I have many shows that run 90% on DCA’s and while I can work around it (mostly) with meter pages on a desk, there isn’t a workaround on an ipad. I’ve had some minor panics where I thought I had no signal because the day before I was on an X32 with DCA meters.
Remember that these meters have ballistics (attack, release, peak hold) and the “software” is actually implemented in an FPGA, so you aren’t simply dealing with a CPU/DSP summing arrays.
A sum of channel levels, integrated independently over time with attack/release, with no relation to frequency content is meaningless.
As a perfect example: take 2 channels with the same signal in phase and equal levels and sum them, the output is +3db higher than what went in. If I take the same 2 channels, flip the phase on one, the “sum the levels method” would still say +3db(ish) and there would be no signal coming out the other side.
They either have the hardware capability to do it right or they don’t, aside from an indication that an individual channel is clipping there isn’t a shortcut that works for the general case.
Jay
@Jay
why are you asking it again? did you read the whole topic?
it is simply not possible…
it is simply not possible…
What makes you say that?
Metering in DCA that is true metering and measures correctly needs summing and this needs busses 24 DCA mean 24 busses only for metering
to calculate metering readouts without weighting is no option because it offers completly wrong results
and if you add busses and inputs to a DCA (that helps organizing your channels for spill) the summing will also lead to irrelevant results
I agree that peak and signal present indication would be possible and helpful
as @DavidCo already mentioned
It’s much easier than the summing that happens when you PFL a DCA, because the audio doesn’t need to be summed as it would be for a PFL (summing the audio is a more complex function). Only the channel levels need to be added, which are available for all channels at all times (see the meter page). Just simple addition of the numbers that are the AFL levels of the channels, that’s it.
Let’s suppose there are two input channels, both fed a sine wave from the signal generator, and we polarity invert one of them. Now let’s feed them both to an audio group but also set them as members of a DCA.
Q: With the audio group summing the two signals together and measuring the level post sum, what does the group metering say?
Answer: they cancel out, there is no visible signal on the meters.
Q: If you sum the metering data of each of the DCA’s members, what would the “DCA metering” say?
Answer: Each member’s metering data doesn’t take into account its phase or polarity, so the levels will just be blindly added together without respecting coherency, and will behave the same regardless of phase/polarity with respect to each other.
I am a programmer, and integer sums are probably one of the simplest operations a computer can do.Being a programmer doesn't qualify you to talk DSP though.. Quid in the post, please.
DC
The example with the signals in phase opposition is quite interesting.
but it is only valid in extreme cases. The extreme case of mutually perfectly extinguishing signals hardly ever occurs. But you could also reply here: on a bus the signals would cancel each other out, but the inputs could still be overdriven and cause distortions elsewhere. So it would still be good if there were a display of the strongest signal.
In real situations, it has been shown that a display of the highest level in each case has proved its worth. it’s not for nothing that colleagues who know the other consoles would like to have something like this in the dLive.
This is getting a little crazy.
It can and has been done on other consoles, like the Yamaha and Behringer/Midas, therefore it can be done on the dLive. Don’t worry about how they would specifically go about that, just put the request in so they know that it’s a wanted feature.
Past in the nineties there was a slogan in the biggest german electric company published to their employees: „better the second best solution now than the best one never.“
Some of us can do teir jobs with one single „chromatic“ LED per channel on the SQ series. But on the dLive we need full accuracy on that tiny 10 segment channel metering? Hm. Imho four states are required: too less, right enought, close to clip, overload. Thats it, at leastfor music jobs.