Mixing

iLive Archived iLive Discussions
1

A thing ive noticed on here everything seems to be about connecting this connecting that seems to me nobody interesting in actually mixing sound just all computer geeks wanting to try the next toy out.

Im a 58 year old soundy started out without graphics/gates/comps or computers but took a digital desk out on tour as soon as i could as i saw the potential but i use it to mix sound not spend the whole time messing with routing and configuring and mixpad.

Does anyone else feel that with digital desks the whole thing has shifted away from just getting a good sound.

Naff

2

Not sure this forum is about mixing, not sure if any forum should be about mixing that is too subjective. Surely it is about sharing solutions to problems that others may experience. All hardware can be troublesome, in my experience especially if it has a computer involved.

I regularly use iLive’s for mixing large orchestral sections, the quality of the console is very important to me, as is the quality of FX and Dynamics. I could use any console on the market, I happen to prefer to use an iLive. The great beauty is I can get 128 inputs channels in 2 X 9U racks and a surface that fits in the boot of my car and it still sounds great, well to my poor 54 year old ears any way, yes I carry an old Tablet to allow me to have a walk around and not have to run back to the surface to make a change, maybe I am getting lazy. Or I could be using computer Geek stuff to allow me more time to do what I think I do best, see what I mean far to subjective[:wink: ]

3
quote:
Originally posted by naffdave

A thing ive noticed on here everything seems to be about connecting this connecting that seems to me nobody interesting in actually mixing sound just all computer geeks wanting to try the next toy out.

Im a 58 year old soundy started out without graphics/gates/comps or computers but took a digital desk out on tour as soon as i could as i saw the potential but i use it to mix sound not spend the whole time messing with routing and configuring and mixpad.

Does anyone else feel that with digital desks the whole thing has shifted away from just getting a good sound.

Naff

To some degree but keep in mind this really is a support forum with people seeking support or answers to questions because they are new, configuring a new system, thinking about a new system, having problems with their system, etc.

Not to mention, it’s a little tough to talk about mixing in the sense, you have to hear a mix to talk about it. Not to say there aren’t mixing related topics to discuss.

4
quote:
Originally posted by naffdave

A thing ive noticed on here everything seems to be about connecting this connecting that seems to me nobody interesting in actually mixing sound just all computer geeks wanting to try the next toy out.

Im a 58 year old soundy started out without graphics/gates/comps or computers but took a digital desk out on tour as soon as i could as i saw the potential but i use it to mix sound not spend the whole time messing with routing and configuring and mixpad.

Does anyone else feel that with digital desks the whole thing has shifted away from just getting a good sound.

Naff

I’m sure WW2 aircraft pilots would say the same thing about the 747 today, or an F1 driver, or really just about any profession that has become more objective and technical.

In the end of the day, all any of this is about is the sound. No one cares if you use compressors, gates, graphic eqs, or anything of that nature, as long as your sound is the best it can be. What I think you are missing is the fact that these technologies are tools, and just like any profession, mastery of the tools allows you to dive into the creative process. With digital desks, it’s more about knowing where and when to apply those tools, and setting up your workflow correctly to make that work.

There was a relaly good article in LSI a few months back taling about subjective engineers vs objective ones. The argument made was ‘it’s gotta be technically right before it can be artistically right’.

I’m only 22, I hear a lot of older sound engineers talking about the ‘good old days’ of the Dead live recordings, techniques for Hendrix guitar solos, and all of that (fantastic) work. But those are the gems of an erra. The reason forms like this focus on the technical aspects are simple, not everyone is Owsley Stanley. Digital, scientific audio has dramatically improved the quality of the average concert/recording. At the end of the day, it’s the engineer who makes or breaks a show/recording in terms of that extra 10% which separates a ‘good, solid’ mix from an ‘astounding’ mix. But that 10% isn’t really something you can teach, and it’s certainly isn’t something you can teach online.

One of my mentors in sound mixes at a conservatory now, although he did a lot of FOH work in the mid 70’s for a lot of big names. When the M7 got multiband compression he didn’t think much about it, until one day I was messing around with a virtual sound check, and showed him a demo. After about 10 mins he took the console, used it in ways i’d never thought of, and created an objectively and subjectively better mix. That right there is why we spend so much time on technical aspects, so when new tools are made available, we can learn them, master them, and apply them in our own creative ways.

So back to your original question,

quote:
Does anyone else feel that with digital desks the whole thing has shifted away from just getting a good sound.

No, certainly not.

5

i am a “old fart” fart as well (used to own mike oldfields old neve 8108 for 20 years e.t.c.)

  • what i love on digital consoles. or lets say the main huge difference they offer (besides the “less cabeling less gear to transport e.t.c.”)

1.“delay per channel” (wich really is a huge improvement specially in dificult rooms)

2.the ability to move the f.o.h. to where the crowd is, in case the promoter overestimated the venue regarding the act -

in english : they rented a 2500 people venue but only 500 came.

in the analogue days once setup, it was almost impossible to do that.

3.the ability the copy paste channels for quick setup -

but still my main concern before a show is the placement of the f.o.h. system wich is vital,

what i miss on many of the younger engineers:

their technically very good but they are not “musical” enough!

a sound engineer has to be at least a hobby musician to understand what the music wants.

and of course “multistyle” from classical to jazz to “swamp blues” to whatever kinda music is out there.

the other advantage of (as mentioned above) of toys is the ipad wich ,besides it is convenient, helps to build confidence on stage with musicians one meets the first time,

simply because we now can stand beside him during monitor check therefore he feels “taken care”…(32 years of sound checks here)

cheers

dave

allways latest firm and software

iLive-144/t-80/idr-10 /idr-48/dante/pl-6/eyepad 1/belkin router/

6

I’ll also add that if you search I’m sure there’s older threads talking about the sound quality of these systems. I know because I read them before suggesting out church but one. And that may not be what you’re implying, but lately the topics have shifted to a more technical side.

Another thing is, I believe it’s somewhat assumed that someone using one of these, or any higher end digital mixer, isn’t new to live sound. I know there are younger/greener people here (myself included), but I think most users biggest “issues” are on the technical side. Just for example, I’m fairly confident on my ability to mix, I’ve just never had a wireless router attached to my desk before. Let alone the ability to use a tablet to mix with. So I’ve came here looking for answers to those issues. And I’m sure most others are in similar situations.

All that said, I do think there’s room, and probably interest in some discussion of the mixing side of things. Anything in particular anyone wants to discuss or share??? I’m always willing to learn a new mic’ing or mixing technique. :smiley:

T112/48, MacBook Pro, D-link DIR-815, iPad 1 w/mixpad, Dante card feeding a Mac Mini w/DVS.

7

I sort of tried to start a hybrid technical artistic thread here but it never really took off

https://iliveforum.allen-heath.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2058

quote:
Originally posted by CMattE

I’ll also add that if you search I’m sure there’s older threads talking about the sound quality of these systems. I know because I read them before suggesting out church but one. And that may not be what you’re implying, but lately the topics have shifted to a more technical side.

Another thing is, I believe it’s somewhat assumed that someone using one of these, or any higher end digital mixer, isn’t new to live sound. I know there are younger/greener people here (myself included), but I think most users biggest “issues” are on the technical side. Just for example, I’m fairly confident on my ability to mix, I’ve just never had a wireless router attached to my desk before. Let alone the ability to use a tablet to mix with. So I’ve came here looking for answers to those issues. And I’m sure most others are in similar situations.

All that said, I do think there’s room, and probably interest in some discussion of the mixing side of things. Anything in particular anyone wants to discuss or share??? I’m always willing to learn a new mic’ing or mixing technique. :smiley:

T112/48, MacBook Pro, D-link DIR-815, iPad 1 w/mixpad, Dante card feeding a Mac Mini w/DVS.

8

To me the “digital desk” is just a toolbox. A big toolbox with lots of different tools in it. I only use the tools I require to get the job done and my job is to balance sounds. When you have great musicians with great instruments the last thing I want to do is smother their performance by using every tool in your toolbox. Our job is to enhance the performance not make it into something entirely different. It is great to have a lot a tools available to you however!

Happy mixing everyone!

Paul [:smiley: ]

idr32, T112, Dante

9

Mixing is something that most of us do very often and are (to varying degrees) somewhat accomplished at it. What we do have issues with are all these things that are new to us we have to deal with like connection protocals and troubleshooting them hence the majority of posts on these topics. There are plenty of places I can pick up mixing tips from but, there is only one place I can go to get the information I need to get my mix racks to talk to each other.

112T/IDR48/IDR16

10

I guess in going through the thread the first time, overly complex and user hostile kind of stuck with me as the main themes of the thread. Hence my previous post. I was just trying to emphasize that one can reduce complexity by using only what you need. I hope I wasn’t perceived as being disrespectful.

But having gone through it again, I understand that it is more about non audio issues. Connectivity, networking etc… If you are not familiar with computers, networks and how to configure them, I certainly see how this can be a source of frustration and/or anxiety. The Ilive systems (mixrack and surface) are preconfigure to work together out of the box. If you are adding wireless connectivity with a router, yes you have to configure it, but once it is configured, you should be good to go night after night. Unlike other digital consoles, the ilives layout is completely configurable which may also add to its complexity…

I’m an old fart too and in the ‘old’ days, there was a different kind of complexity. Configuring the system consisted of lugging around and wiring all that outboard gear (sends/returns, inserts…). With no recall of show set-ups, sound checks were a good chunk of work also.

So to answer naffdave’s original question, I don’t feel that the technology has shifted away from just getting a good sound. It all depends on what the operator is comfortable with. As a note, I recently turned down a gig because I was not familiar with the digital desk supplied by the venue. I explained to the artist that I didn’t currently have the time to familiarize myself with the desk and I didn’t want to compromise the show by spending 80% of my effort trying to figure out how to do something on the desk.

Paul [:smiley: ]

11
quote:
Originally posted by naffdave

A thing ive noticed on here everything seems to be about connecting this connecting that seems to me nobody interesting in actually mixing sound just all computer geeks wanting to try the next toy out.

Im a 58 year old soundy started out without graphics/gates/comps or computers but took a digital desk out on tour as soon as i could as i saw the potential but i use it to mix sound not spend the whole time messing with routing and configuring and mixpad.

Does anyone else feel that with digital desks the whole thing has shifted away from just getting a good sound.

Naff

Absolutely - In the field I watch engineers worrying about how to link faders, connect to iPads, must have plug-ins and making hundred of scene saves, but they don’t seem to be that concerned about the quality of sound (why else would you pick an M7 over an iLive), nor mixing the music….

Do not get me wrong, I just love the power and flexibility that digital consoles offer as a tool to create music, it’s a dream come true, but some people seem more focused on the game-boy and ego aspects than the music….

Peter

12

Well let’s be fair, 90, probably 95% of musical acts don’t care that much. The difference between an m7 and an iLive are noticeable to US, but at a Gym Class Heroes concert is anyone really going to be able to tell? Anyone in the audience?

I think you’re right that, for a lot of people and a lot of groups, having a sound console that works is plenty. And honestly, I don’t disagree. I work with bands at our college, and other forms of live entertainment, but if we were doing theater shows there’s no what I’d have chosen an iLive console, the scene management is just too… well we all know what I mean. It’s a system you have to work with, as opposed to a system that works with you. (just to be clear, I feel the oposite way when mixing bands, ilive is the fastest and most flexible system i’ve used for bands, but that falls apart for pre-programmed shows)

So let’s be honest, if you have to chose between how well it works for your application, and how well it sounds for your application, the lot of us will chose the first every time.

I work two jobs, but my boss at the conservatory purchased an m7 three years ago, he’s been mixing for 30 years and is regarded as excellent recording and live sound engineer. He’d never heard of the iLive system before I showed it to him. Now he wants one.

So when you say people are more worried about ‘linking faders and ipad hookups’ some of that might be true, or that might just be the case because they’re not spending all of their time turning aux buttons or hitting mute groups or hauling 500lbs of snake.

iDR-48, T-112, Mixpad

College