SQ6 based but with only 24 real analogue inputs so we have dozens of unused ‘virtual’ channels higher up the desk.
We want to try and create an automatically controlled stream feed from about half a dozen mike channels that are also used for FOH plus a couple of congregation mikes for singing and background. Function wise - this needs to operate a bit like another bus - but the faders on that bus are automatically controlled.
Example channel 10 - yellow radio mike - normally used by one of the leaders.
As I understand it - if you apply AMM to a channel - in this case ch10 - the output of that channel is no longer under your direct control for FOH mix so would be nonsensical for FOH sound. If that is the case is it possible to link each channel to a unused higher up channel and apply the AMM just to that higher up channel? Eg we link ch10 to ch30 and apply AMM to channel 30.
If not - how do we go about achieving this without adding more kit?
First, the AMM system will not work well for anything other than speech (ie sources with spoken word only). It will fail miserably if you try to use it to mix “musical” sources.
Second, why do you want to duplicate your broadcast sources? There are plenty of good reasons to do it, but there are also plenty of unnecessary reasons. I’m just trying to figure out your reasons before I give further advice.
We are a small Cof E church with a typical cong from 70-100 ish. The services are relatively traditional though we do sometime have a worship band - sometimes only piano.
We have FOH mix and a separate bus mix for hearing loop at the moment which is preset to all leaders mikes - but NOT worship band/musos. That does mean that during songs, if the speakers mikes are all closed - the hearing loop gets nothing. If I’m doing sound I’ll add the worship leader vocal into hearing loop when he is talking but not when singing. I also will add the lectern mike in at a low level during singing so it acts as an auditorium pickup =- sort of. Operators are all volunteers so there is a limit to how much they can manage and that sort of fiddling is not feasible for them.
We stream on zoom at the moment but use the camera mike - which is ok ish during singing, but really not good during talky bits. I’d like to improve the zoom feed - take it from the desk - but have some way of focussing on the main speaking mike when active and auditorium if not. Automatically if at all possible. I know about all the zoom audio options and enhancements - the weak link is actually collecting the sound we want to send out
(A long LONG time ago - probably 10years BDD - before digital desks) I built a very analogue auto mike mixer/switcher for a church that gave priority to the loudest mike but also had singing detect where it allowed an auditorium mike to take over but at a lower gain. This was to send sound to a creche. I 'd have thought this technology would be built in something like the SQ digital desk.
Yes the AMM is not an automatic mixer for music.
Maybe try group ducking?
All told I think your making it too complicated, set up a post fade mix/aux to feed the live stream and maybe have a dedicated room mic just in the live stream mix to add a bit of the room sound.
So what did you build and how was it triggered to “auto mix”?
Thankyou. We’re not trying to control music with the AMM just the talky leaders mikes. We are also trying to make it easy for unskilled volunteer operators. If I am on the desk I can achieve this easily manually - but that is at least one step too far for most of our operators.
The old system I mentioned was in my days as electronic designer consultant. It was totally hardware based and pickup the mike signals from the insert points on a standard analogue desk (we’re talking 30+ years ago). The trigger levels and timings were adjustable by preset pots. Basically - it backed off the gain on non active mikes and backed off the gain on all when singing was detected. Once set up it was a switch it on and forget it box in the corner. It worked really well week after week.
What it was doing would be (i thought) an easy task in the digital domain for SQ series.
My initial questions to allow me to do some playing is:
Q1. As i understand it - if you add AMM to a channel it controls the gain/level of that channel so you cannot also use it for FOH and retain control. Is that correct?
Q2. If so - can I use links to feed the same analogue input to 2 channels - one for FOH one for AMM controlled streaming without the AMM getting in the way of the FOH signal?
EG: Can I link several (5-6 signals in total) input signals to a second desk channel that In can apply AMM to
Ch15 yellow radio mike - mixed into FOH. Linked to channel 45 which goes to the AMM and out of a spare aux feed for streaming
and Ch16 red radio mike - mixed into FOH. Linked to channel 46 which goes to the AMM and out of the aux streaming feed.
Your use case is almost precisely what we do! We have FoH, Hearing Loop, and a Video Stream, all as separate mix outputs. I’m not certain we are doing everything the best it can be done, but here’s what we do and maybe something will be helpful. There is almost certainly ways to make this BETTER, but we have volunteers so sometimes good & easy wins out over perfect & hard.
(if anyone smarter than me sees something cosmically stupid or overcomplicated below, please let me know! )
First: Regarding your question about AMM. I’m not sure we are using it to its fullest—or even properly!—but, like you, I want to make matters easier for the volunteers, so it’s off by default. To turn it on I configured a soft-key that lights up when it’s active (circled in orange):
All of the spoken-word mics are routed to the AMM in our default scene but AMM is disabled. Whenever we need multiple mics open for SPEAKING (not for music, as mentioned above by sic0048) the user can tap that button and AMM is enabled. The faders still function as usual, but what happens is that the mic with the highest signal level is used and the other channels are automatically ducked to avoid phasing or feedback. You can adjust the priorities of the mics (give the minster highest, for instance) but I’ve found the default settings do well enough for our simplistic needs. This may not be the best or proper way to use AMM, but it works for us.
But I’ll be honest: I don’t use AMM much. However it’s perfect when we have a roundtable discussion with 5 or 6 mics open so people can just talk without waiting for us to ride a fader up. I’ve missed too many people’s first-words so that’s why I set up an easy way to enable AMM!
FoH, Hearing Loop, Stream: We don’t route the input sockets to multiple input channels. Main FoH is easy: just the L/R mix, but we don’t route our piano mics or audience mics to FoH since they don’t need to be amplified. For the Hearing Loop, we set up a Post-Fader aux mix and route only the vocal mics to the Hearing Loop mix. We also set up another Post Fader mix with every channel routed for our Video Stream mix. (Circled in pink above) We gain-staged all the input channels such that we don’t need any tweaking of the aux mix levels (all set to unity)—if the mix is good for FoH, 9 times out of 10 the mix and overall level is good enough for the Video Stream. But it’s an easy matter to adjust the mix by tapping the appropriate mix button and adjusting as necessary. I don’t have a pic of that but for, say, the Video Stream mix, every channel fader is set to unity. For Hearing Loop, only the vocal mics are set to unity and all others are not routed.
The nice thing about our setup is everything can be adjusted from one fader layer. All level adjustments for FoH are mirrored on our hearing loop and video stream aux outputs because they are set to post-fader.
Our piano and audience mics are not routed to FoH BUT are still post-fader for the stream mix, so we PAFL the Stream mix for the headphones (orange, below). The faders control the levels of the piano and audience mics like all of the other channels but since we don’t route them to the L/R mix they don’t sound through the speakers, but this setup makes it easy for the volunteers to mix for the stream: no need to switch to a mix layer and tweak—Everything is all on one layer (Below). I put the Video Stream output level on the main layer so the overall level can be tweaked if necessary into OBS (purple, below).
Thanks. I think that is useful but do need to digest it a bit and think. Thankyou.
It would never have occurred to me to use AMM on front of house - unless - as you say its a round table discussion which is a perfect fit for AMM.
Our hearing loop bus is all pre fader as one scenario (& scene) is what we call 8AM dummies mode. HTTP command from the TV control panel sets that scene on power up. Lectern mike, one radio mike, bluetooth mp3 and ATEM studio sound channels are enabled. This scene is intended to be unmanned - at most two mikes, background music and maybe video playback via the ATEM - all at preset levels controllable only by the source device. We use the same starter aux mix for fully manned services though we can then add in other sources to the hearing loop if needed.
Going away to think for a bit and also going to go and play with the desk to experiment with the AMM and channel patching.
UPDATE: I can’ t see any way on the desk of routing one input socket to 2 channels - it appears to be a one to one relationship. My idea of using the AMM to ONLY control stream feed by doubling up channels is a non starter.
I use an SQ5 in my church, which I also use for streaming. I’ve used the AMM for 3 years & I have found it an asset. It’s ideally used with similar mic’s but I seem to have used it under every circumstance & it just seems to work. It’s a “gain sharing algorithm” which works extremely fast. You especially hear one mic level although if you have two good levels, both can be heard but unless it’s set to favour one mic or the other, it will favour the stronger signal. The best way to experiment & gain confidence is to do a virtual sound check (using a tie-line signal) then play it back through the same channels. You can then hear the effect of switching it in & out & also see the operation within the AMM page. I have left the settings at default. I do have it on a soft key but rarely switch it off live - it cleans up transitions between speakers & helps maintain a more consistent PA spill level for the stream. I have used the soft key to allow me to pre-fade a channel using AMM but this has now changed with SQ5 firmware 1.06
The way I see the mixer is as part of an ecosystem - there are some physical inputs & outputs, these can then be increased through stage boxes, Dante card ect Each input can be routed to one or more IP for additional patch duty (if asking this question, the local or digital stage box channel can simply be added to additional IP channels in the patch panel) You can see them as “virtual channels” but in fact, because the SQ5 doesn’t have a direct 1:1 relationship between the local channels & the IP’s then the two are separate in that they can be freely patched & one input can be multi-patched as desired.
Thanks I will go and give that a go. I did play with the desk yesterday but didn’t discover that option then - will have another go now I know what to look for.
Unable to actually try this for a day or two for reasons of access. If you link two channels like this does it operate as though it was two physical input sockets wired in parallel or if not - how much of the physical interface is common to both? i.e you have totally separate gain, mute, eq, routing etc etc on the the channels? Phantom power???
If you double patch channels, then you get totally separate processing and routing for each copy.
The preamp is shared, however - there’s only one physical socket, after all - so preamp gain, phantom power and pad are shared between the two. If you adjust in one, the change will affect the other.
Each copy gets their own unique digital trim, though - so use that to make gain adjustments if necessary.
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