Aux source take-off points

SQ SQ General Discussions
1

Really, A&H, you moved an aux take off point from post insert to post compressor. For those of us that use inserts and particularly routing thru a Waves Soundgrid card, loss on that take off point is huge.
I would rather have Pre and Post inserts take off points than post compressor.
I support the many other changes in 1.6, however, I was contemplating moving back to 1.5 but seeing my Ipads have been updated before discovering the Aux take-offs, there is no option to return to 1.5, other than using strictly laptops, and this even screw up musicians who, either already upgraded to 1.6 for SQ4You app and/or are on different versions of SQ at different venues.

Very Disappointed

2

I hadn’t noticed that but you’re right and its annoyingly not documented anywhere I can find in the release notes only in the block diagrams.

IMO they should have added a tap point not swapped it

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3

There were countless other more or less sensible suggestions here in the forum, but they remained suggestions.
So there must be other reasons for this – including why it’s not even mentioned.
As you already wrote: More flexibility would have been welcome, of course, but simply removing a source point without comment is not professional of course.
But strangely enough, no one seems to mind.

4

I don’t know who A&H were trying to please with that change of source points?
Ok im sure someone thought they needed individual channel compression for the monitor mix. If that were even a thing, then why not move the aux source point from the Post Delay/AMM point.

5

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone.

As part of the architecture of the FPGA, there are four tap off points available in the channel to send to mixes. All crosspoints have to preexist in the core of the mixer for you to be able to use/select them. We have to have post preamp - for obvious reasons - and we also have to have one right at the end (Post Delay/ AMM), also hopefully for obvious reasons.

The reason it was moved was because of people having problems with AMM, specifically monitoring channels that were in an AMM and setting up compression. Now, you can PAFL channels and listen to all processing (apart from the AMM) so that you can set up compressors and the like without having to remove channels from the AMM. Hence we moved this tap-off point to allow all processing except AMM to be recorded, sent to auxes and most importantly monitored/PAFL.

In addition, we added the option to select the metering point for the channel meters, meaning that you can choose to meter with or without the AMM gain but with all processing and including compression.

Apologies that you were using this pick-off point for something else. We would have loved to have added more, but this was unfortunately just not possible. When we spoke to engineers, there was a consensus that the AMM issue made moving the pick point more useful than leaving it where it was (post PEQ is a good compromise for those that really need post insert)

If you’ve got questions, please shout!

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6

Being you stated you ran out of crosspoints, and being limited by the FPGA you selected for the SQ and being you are making a compromise for the Automatic Mic Mixing crowd, how about compromising and make an adjustment to the Mixer Configuration.

We have Master and Listen now, how about making it Master, Listen and AMM. You could regain at least one cross point, probably more, for take-off points. In a Mixer Configuration fix, the operator could select the intended configuration and use of the console. Master, Listen or AMM for those that are not interested in mixing.

Seems Allen and Heath is placing more emphasis on Automatic, rather than it being a real operator controlled mixer. (exaggerating a bit, but you get the gist)

Sorry to appear to be argumentative, but those of us who purchased additional features like Waves SoundGrid Card from A&H and all the additional supportive hardware and software to go along with it, get compromised to AMM. Really?

And the SQ doesn’t even have a Real-Time Clock. Thanks, by the way, for the work around by Reading another attached device’s time, so we can at lest differentiate out recordings dates and times.

Honestly most of the updates were long overdue. Thanks!

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7

Would you mind sharing exactly what your setup was/is, please?
We’d really love to understand better about what you were doing that required post-insert but that can’t be achieved with post-PEQ.

It’s always extremely helpful to hear about how people are using our mixers out in the field.

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8

I’m sorry no! I’m not interested in wasting my time on this anymore. If you need to ask that question, then you already are not interested in solving the issue , but in justifying your decision to take a great board and handycap it further.

It no longer meets my needs, plain and simple.

Suffice it to say, I use Waves SoundGrid to host my plugin server. I can chain plugins to easily achieve my desired workflow and sonic qualities. Qualities I don’t want re-EQ’d or re-compressed going to FOH, vs what goes to monitor / Groups/ mixes.

Like I said, It no longer meets my needs.

9

On the contrary, we’re always up for hearing feedback from people like yourself and how you use our products. I was asking because of genuine curiosity to hear about your workflow - I’m not here to justify decisions or be high-handed about these things.

It isn’t clear to me why it doesn’t meet your needs - if you don’t want to have any signals re-compressed or re-EQ’d then toggle those processing blocks out. Presumably you’re routing your Waves Soundgrid signals to channel inserts anyway, so the only difference between the old post-insert point and the new configuration is that you’ve got to toggle the PEQ out if you don’t want it.

I’m sorry you feel like you’re wasting your time on this - we’re here to hear from our customers and support you wherever possible. It’s tricky to do that if you won’t engage in the conversation, though.

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10

Ok Mark, I’ll engage.

My name is Mike. Nice to meet you.

I’ll start off with a very simple question.

What’s more important, Front of House or Monitors.
It depends on perspective right? To whom, the persons performing or the persons consuming.

So, what’s more important? FOH or Monitors?

11

This exact problem has negatively impacted my workflow and needs to be fixed!

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12

In my personal workflow I used “Post Insert Return” to send vocals to monitors from FOH post HPF and Gate but without my FOH EQ and Comp Effecting it… Now I have to double patch those channels to have the same effect which adds time into my already short soundchecks!

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13

Double patch means you can actually EQ the vocals in the monitors. Sounds like a win. Personally, I find that if a source needs EQ for the house, it also needs similar EQ for the monitors, so I always want my monitors post EQ pre comp.

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14

Double patch means you only have a 24ish channel mixer out of 48 with an SQ.

Using my Waves plugin server I don’t need to Double patch just to EQ FOH and monitors / inears individually. I get all 48 channels.

That changed with version 1.6. I can no longer do that without a Post Insert Pre EQ take-off.

If musician can’t hear, they can’t play, and most will cry and complain all night long. Not just about vocals, but also instruments. Especially with in-ears.

We’re all losing capability with this new version 1.6

15

Mike,

While I realize the update changed the way your signal flow worked, I also have a hard time understanding why this change is a “deal breaker.”

I understand you want to use Waves plugins. I’m guessing that you want to use the console’s onboard channel compressors instead of using Waves compressors so that you can use a pick point for the monitor sends that is pre-compressor. This way the monitors don’t hear the compressor, but you can use the channel compressor for FOH use.

All that being said, I have a hard time understanding why changing the pick point from “post-insert” to “post-EQ” is so problematic. Since the channel EQ is the very next step in the signal flow, the fact that the channel EQ will be part of the “pick off” audio chain is the only difference between old and new. Therefore I have to ask, what EQ are you doing with the channel EQ that you can’t or don’t want in the monitor feed? I think it is fairly standard to use channel EQ to correct a problem with the source. These “source corrections” would normally be desired on every output, including monitor sends. Plus if you are using Waves plugins for your EQ needs, then the different pick point probably doesn’t make any difference because you likely weren’t using the channel EQ in the first place.

I, like MarkF, aren’t saying what you are doing is wrong. Everyone just needs to understand WHY the new audio workflow won’t work for you. Just complaining that it is different without explaining how the new workflow doesn’t work for you isn’t going to help A&H understand how different people are actually using the systems - which goes a long way in helping enable future changes.

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16

Looks to me like you can’t EQ a source in the monitors at all. Sure, you can use the entire monitor EQ to fix a source issue, like a boomy acoustic or a harsh electric, but what do you do when one source needs a boost where another needs a cut?

17

I guess its not apparent so bare with me as this will be long. If anyone can find me a better solution, please speak up.

I asked Mark a question and I’ll repose for thought, as this lead to my workflow.

Which is more important, the Monitor/In-ear mix or FOH,? More and more musicians have begun using In-Ear monitoring. Please think before reading on.

If a musician cant hear, they cant play to their ability and/or probably won’t enjoy themselves. Likewise the consumer probably wont hear the best performance.

Our job as sound engineers is to provide both. I hope that’s the right answer.

Setup: SQ7, GX4816, Waves Soundgrid Card to and from Plug-in Host Server, SMAART.

Every channel gets HP filtered.

Vocals, drums and guitars, groups get routed to the Waves Card to plugins via Channel Inserts.

I start off by SMAART ing unknown rooms, EQing for the Room with DSP on Speakers/Subs or system processors and or LR Main EQ. Nothing unusual hear, I hope!

Next for each channel, I EQ, via plugins on the Waves Host, the In-Ear Mixes and route to mix channels and groups,ETC, POST INSERT - PRE EQ. This is my Monitor/In-Ear EQ (from Waves Host) fully adjustable for each channel, not just an overall mix.

On my Waves Host in can EQ each channel to Monitors / In-Ears individually and make changes throughout the show. My FOH is already mostly EQ’d, now so are my monitors / In-Ears.

I set up on each channel, via plugin, to include a PSE (Primary Source Expander, EQ, Multiband Compressor, and Reverb. There’s other plugins at times but you all get the point. The PSE keeps all the stage noise and guitar buzz out of both mains and monitors between songs and when there are no vocals minimal bleed from drums and cymbals without having to use gates. (one of my bands are completely ampless on stage, except drums)

This basically becomes the static mix at this point. All relying on the POST INSERT - PRE EQ take-off point. Everything is saved at this point, both Mixer and Plugins.

I can eq the individual guitar, vocals, add effects, you know be a sound engineer/producer, as the show progresses, for the musicians, maintaining their opportunity to perform their best and most creative.

FOH

As the show changes, Room, room temperature, size of crowd, outside temperature,etc, I can POST INSERT, EQ, compress, add texture and effect, for each channel for FOH and NOT have it effect the Musician, monitors/In-Ears. All BECAUSE the take-off point is POST INSERT - PRE EQ.

There’s effect the musician hears and there are combined effects the consumer / participants hears.

I get to have all 48 channels without Double Patching.

FOH and in-ears – Stereo Always. Wedges mono

My Inputs,
Typically set for 5 vocalists
Two guitarists, each get two channels for effective panning, fades and front fill effects
Bass - two channels, speaker cab and direct or cab simulator
Drums - Kick in, Kick out, and and Kick Crush channel. Snare top, snare bottom and snare crush, hi- toms and floor toms as needed and same for cymbals. but typically hi-hat and ride at a minimum.
Every channel gets some kind of panning and overall mix may even get a Stereo Widener.
There may be other channels in use obviously.

This cannot be done without POST-INSERT PRE EQ , and still provide best experience for both Musician and Audience.

Losing this take-off point is huge.

If anyone can provide a better setup that works for all situations, provided best experience for both musician and consumer, provide a compact setup without a separate monitor mixer both hardware and operator. Im ALL ears.

I had it when I purchased the console and now its taken away.

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18

Interesting setup. Thanks for explaining. Is there any reason you can’t stay with the previous firmware?

19

Thank you for taking time to explain your workflow and situation.

Your biggest hangup with the new firmware seems to be the way your workflow works with regard to the FOH sound. If I understand your workflow correctly, you want the ability to change things in the channel processing during the show that would affect FOH and not monitors.

However the only thing you can’t do under the new firmware is adjust the channel EQ for FOH only while not affecting the other sends (like monitors). However EVERYTHING else is exactly the same with the new firmware. For example, you can make adjustments to the channel compressor and because you choose the “post EQ” pick point and the compressor is after that pick point, the adjustments to the compressor aren’t going to affect your monitor sends. Therefore your only “problem” with the new firmware comes down to the ability to adjust the channel EQ which in your original workflow affects only the FOH sound and not the monitors. Under the new firmware, any changes to the channel EQ is going to affect both the FOH sound and monitors.

I’m not going say that I never can see a situation where I might want to change the FOH EQ without messing with the monitor EQ, but honestly there aren’t a lot of situations where I would want to do that. Even if there was an environmental change that affected only a single source/input that prompted me to want to change the channel EQ during the show, that change would also be appropriate for the monitor send too. Afterall, if the environmental changes are affecting the actual source, then that environmental change is also being hear in the IEM system.

On the other hand, if the environmental changes (to adjust for humidity, temp, etc) are not affecting a single source alone, but are changes that are affecting the sound emanating from the various outputs (like the PA), then those adjustments should be done at the output buss level, not the individual channel level. IMHO, it is much more common to adjust the buss processing than adjusting a single source because of an environmental issue during the show. Adjusting the buss processing is not going to affect the monitor sends and therefore your buss adjustments would not affect your musicians.

20

Yes, most people using IPads and IPhone or similar and have their apps automatically updated, got updated to ver 1.6 without their knowledge. Great for most apps.
Just not A&H that require major versions only use. Version 1.5 firmware not usable or recommended with ver1.6 apps or vice versa.
You can use laptops and the older versions I think are still available. I’m sure I still have the older files of each, just no current path with Apple and I’m told Android also, but I haven’t verified.

I never in a hundred years would have thought A&H would remove features, especially because they effect the use of an expensive add-on like Soundgrids cards many uses.

A&H could instead have just created a third mixer configuration, either in configuration or with a separate firmware release for the AMM uses, which are only recommended for pure speech engagements, per their manual.

That simple change would open up even more capabilities people have been asking for by moving AMM to its own version. Using FPGA’s many capabilities.