CQ18T IEM MONO MIXES ISSUES

CQ CQ General Discussions
1

Hey there!

Apologies for the lengthy post; English isn’t my first language, and condensing ideas isn’t my strong suit, haha.

I’m the MD and drummer of a 5-member cover band. We perform regularly at small venues, bars, and events. Previously, we used a couple of Zoom L20s, one in our rehearsal space and a second one in our portable rack. They served us well but felt somewhat limited in terms of fine-tuning sound, mixes and effects. Excited by the possibilities offered by the CQ line, we replaced our L20s with two CQ18Ts.

Most of the time, we handle our sound ourselves. I’m usually the one playing and controlling the mix, including everyone’s IEM mixes.

After a week of experimenting with the mixer and setting everything up, our first show with the new equipment arrived. Unfortunately, it didn’t meet our expectations, mainly due to monitoring issues. My bandmates and I struggled to hear our mixes properly. We thought switching from stereo monitoring to mono wouldn’t be a big deal, but it turned out to be much worse. For some reason, every AUX out sounded flat, lifeless, and overly compressed. There was also a noticeable lack of low-frequency response compared to the Main LR out, which sounded great. Each bandmate complained about how thin and flat their mixes sounded, which really ruined the mood of the show.

We tried troubleshooting by bypassing everything on our mixes — no limiter, no EQ, nothing. We turned off everything post-fader, but the sound still came out thin and compressed.

I also switched my monitors (AUX 5 & 6 linked) from stereo to mono to see what they meant. Immediately, I noticed how the same mix I was hearing perfectly in stereo deteriorated significantly once in mono. It’s not just a panning issue; there are also problems with frequencies. What was perfectly balanced in stereo suddenly became muddy and unbalanced in mono. You can hear how some frequencies cancel each other out, it’s not good. We didn’t encounter these issues with our previous L20s. While it wasn’t the greatest mixer, at least my band was able to perform decently.

I’m not sure if we’re doing something wrong. Do you guys have any pointers on how to improve things for my performers?

Thanks!

2

I too have a similar experience and still have my Zoom L-20. I’m still in my return window and have decided to return my CQ-18T and buy again once a sufficient firmware update is released.

3

How are you connecting to the IEM system?
I ask as the TRS outputs of the CQ-18T (and CQ-12T) are balanced mono, so if you connected them to a stereo TRS input of a headphone amplifier you’d get all kinds of phase weirdness and cancellation going on.
You hopefully already know from the getting started and user guides too, that the outputs are line level, so you cannot connect headphones directly.

Thanks,
Keith

4

Thank you, Keith.

Appreciated the input here. The problem happened with two different setups, at our home studio we don’t use wireless, so we connected the headphones directly to the AUX outputs, yes, it is line level but we checked the output power and it was enough to drive the IEM headphones, is that an issue? Can that mess with the phase and frequencies or just the output level?

The other scenario we had issues was live, connecting from each AUX output to 2 PHENYX PRO PTM-10 units to feed 4 performers, for example: AUX 1>left input and AUX 2>right input of each unit, the transmitter is working as dual mono, so each performer gets a different mono mix. As I get to do double duties, drumming and mixing, I have a wired connection to the mixer, using the Headphones B, listening to the outputs AUX 5 & 6 linked in stereo. I usually replicate the main LR mix to my mix so I can have an idea of what is going on generally but with the added click track.

So based on our case, what would you say is the best way to connect our IEMs wired and wireless in each scenario? do we need 4 headphone amplifiers to go wired at our studio? Not sure if a multi mono input/output amplifier exits, can you give me an example of such device?

Is our wireless connection wrong? What can we do to improve our wireless sound coming from the mixer?

Coming from the Zoom L20 we didn’t have these problems, our system worked and sounded just ok.

Thanks again for your reply, I’m proficient with these things, but not an expert, so any guide can help us to take advantage of our 2 CQ18Ts.

5

A mono signal is send via TRS, the 3 wires are used:
-1 for the GND,
-1 for a signal (a mix of the L and R done inside the console)
-1 for an invert of this signal.
In normal situation dephasing of the inverted signal is done at the end device (end amplifier).
But not for a stereo stereo headphone and it is obvious that you will have phase cancellation.
To get a proper mono AUX into stereo headphone you need to use mono personal monitor device that allow to plug stereo headphone.
To get one proper stereo OUT from AUX, uses 2 auxes.

.

6

Good posts regarding knowledge of outputs 1-6 of the CQ-18T. What is the solution for using headphones and / or IEM’s on outputs 1-6? Thank you for your patience with new customers to the Allen and Heath ecosystem. :slight_smile:

7

As I said, mono personal IEM system (generally the small cabled ones) can deal with STEREO headphone out of a MONO input.
They have only one XLR input and a single jack stereo headphone out.
But you wont’ get STEREO in the headphone, only 2 times the same mono signal.
Those little pieces can also deal with real stereo, but only if the input is stereo.
For the CQ, the only native stereo OUT are the headphones OUT.
If you want to ear STEREO form the AUX, you need to use 2 AUX OUT from the console, by linking them in the CONFIG/INPUT tab.

Make it simple, for most console,all XLR and combo jack IN/OUt = symmetric signal, witch mean that Tip and Ring share the same signal but one is phase inverted (long distance interferences protection),
that mean no stereo.
For a stereo signal (USB, BT or ST input), if you send it to one AUX, L and R are mixed and this mix is transported the same way:
-one mix in the Tip
-and the same mix but inverted in the Ring.

8

This is a problem these days with all the 1/4" TRS devices.

The problem is that a 1/4" TRS looks like a stereo, but it’s not. It’s a balanced mono signal, where a stereo (like headphones) is an unbalanced stereo.

  • TRS balanced mono - Tip to positive, Ring to negative, and Sleeve to ground.
  • TRS unbalanced stereo - Tip to positive of one channel, Ring to positive of other channel, sleeve to negative/ground.

So a TRS cable plugged into a balance mono on one end and an unbalanced stereo on the other end doesn’t work. Even if you’re device has a “mono/stereo” switch it may not work due to the TRS cable making connections to two different place inside the device. It may also work, it depends on how the device is wired.

  • Another point, to convert from a TRS balanced mono to a TS unbalanced mono, you connect Tip to Tip, Ring and Sleeve on the TRS is connected together and connected to Sleeve of the TS. This is actually the same as just plugging a TS cable into the TRS jack. Since there is no break between sleeve and ring, it joins those two together creating an unbalanced TS signal.

So your best solution to try first, is just plug in a TS cable into the CQ18T’s 1-6 output and connect that to your IEM amp. Since the device now sees an unbalanced mono cable, the mono/stereo cable switched to mono might work correctly.

If it doesn’t then you need to create a balanced mono TRS to and unbalanced mono TRS cable. It’s hard to find a picture of how to make one of these, but there are plenty of examples of balanced mono XLR to unbalanced mono TRS cables. Here’s a picture of one of those.

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To translate that picture into a TRS instead of an XLR… pin 1 to sleeve, Pin 2 to tip, and pin 3 to ring is the standard XLR to TRS unbalanced mono.

  • I’ll define a TRS cable with two ends, end1 and end2.
  • Connect Tip of end1 to two 470 ohm resistors.
  • Connect one of the 470 ohm resistors to Tip of end2
  • Connect the the other 470 ohm resistor to ring of end2
  • Connect ring and sleeve of end1 to sleeve of end2.

Hope that helps…

9

I’ll add that this is called a “summing cable” and you can find XLR To TRS summing cables for sale. If you can’t build one of these look for a TRS to TRS summing cable, there are a few for sale although you might only find short ones, but you can use a female to male TRS cable to extend it.

10

Wow! Thank you all for sharing your knowledge here, this is definitely a topic that I didn’t know was this complex, and from what I see, it is not well understood by most of us. I mean, the whole TS, TRS balanced or unbalanced vs stereo stuff is kind of confusing since they share a couple of connectors, but I’m trying to figure it out.

So, I ended up buying a Behringer HA8000 to send 5 individual headphones mixes in our rehearsal space. I haven’t received yet, but I’m planning to connect each AUX output from the CQ18T to the AUX inputs of the corresponding HA8000 channel using a TS (mono) cable and then select the mono option in it.

Now, Keith mentioned that the CQ18T aux outs are mono balanced, right? Will I miss anything frequency, noise, quality wise connecting both devices with a TS (mono) cable? What will be the best approach in this situation?

11

Ah, now you’re getting fancy with an HA8000! hahaha…

Actually the HA800, I believe the “direct in” connections are balanced TRS mono connectors. So I think you can use a TRS to TRS cable to that input, so that makes it really easy. But you can also use a TS cable too and it should work just fine.

The difference between TRS and TS… You won’t lose any frequencies or anything like that. The only difference is possibly a bit of noise. But it’s not guaranteed that you’ll get more noise with a TS cable, it depends on what type of noise interference you have (if any). So give it a try with a TS cable, most likely it will work fine. But with the HA8000 you can also try a TRS cable and see if you have any difference.

The HA8000 takes care of doing the Mono to Stereo headphone conversion and let’s you set the headphone levels and let’s multiple headphones use the same mix, etc. etc. So that’s a good choice for all your in ears and will probably resolve all your problems.

12

I’m having the same issue with the CQ12, I have a 1/4 TRS to XLR plug into my IEM (mono) and the sound is as the OP satated “sounded flat, lifeless, and overly compressed”

I’m thinking of (1) trying to use 2 x 1/4 to xlr and linking channels to stereo to see if that’s better sound OR i’m not getting the right cable for output and/or i don’t have the outputs dailed in correctly.

If someone can post the correct cables to use that would be helpful. Specifically a mono cable way.

13

I saw this post and thought I could add a solution which may work for some people and not cost the earth. I haven’t tried it myself though.

Disclaimer: I am not a professional.

Context: IEM systems that expect a 2ch input over 3 wires and which then sum this to mono. Not a solution for other contexts.

Symptom: Lack lack-lustre audio or almost none at all.

Cause: Feeding a balanced mono signal into these systems by mistake causes the +ve signal to be cancelled out by the -ve signal during the mono summing process as a +ve value plus it’s -ve value = 0.

Solution: Convert balanced mono on TRS to unbalanced 2ch on TRS first then use original cables.

Device: kenable Metal 6.35mm Stereo Socket to 6.35mm Mono Jack Plug Adapter plugged into mix monitor jack sockets.

Cost for 6 channels (inc shipping): £8.30 UK

Details:

Electrically such an adapter will:

  1. Short the -ve part of the balanced signal inside the mixer on it’s ring to ground (sleeve) going from balanced to unbalanced.
  2. Replicate/Split the +ve part of the signal from the tip onto the ring so that it received by the IEM on both the notional left and right sides / 1st and 2nd channels.

Note that devices like the CQ which have balanced outputs over TRS, are expected to encounter people plugging in guitar (TS) cables to connect say to a stage monitor and just loose the balanced element of the output as a result. If such devices broke because somebody plugged in a TS cable and shorted -ve to ground then they’d be being returned all the time. Most musicians don’t even know that there are such a thing as TRS cables.

Such an adapter just looks like a guitar cable to the mixer, so it’s nothing weird.

My understanding is that the impedance seen by the mixer’s output when connecting the 2 channels of the IEM in parallel should be half that of just one channel and that this will be fine.

I thought it was worth posting if some people can be saved by spending only a few pennies.
If having adapters poking out is messy but works, then at least working wiring will have been established and can be done a neater way to replicate what the adapter is doing (just moving things between pins).

Happy to be corrected/delete the post if those more knowledgeable can point out any flaws here.

14

Each CQ OUT are TRS balanced mono if you don’t link 2 OUT. Why do you need to sum ?

The adapter you link won’t work properly because as you say it short ring and sleeve.

On each OUT of the CQ, sleeve is GND, ring is a - signal composed by the L/R sum and tip is the same L/R sum at opposite phase (+).

So phase cancelation will occur if you short the two.

15

Should you want to use wired stereo IEM, then use CQ OUT in linked mode (1&2, 3&4 and 5&6).
In linked mode, (example for 1&2),
-OUT1 deliver the balanced L signal where 1 is the GND, 2 is the positive L signal and 3 is the negative L signal.
-OUT2 deliver the balanced R signal where 1 is the GND, 2 is the positive R signal and 3 is the negative R signal.

If you then want to use a stereo headphone, use an adapter that bring
-Pin2 of the OUT1 to TIP of the stereo headphone jack
-Pin2 of the OUT2 to RING of the stereo headphone jack
-GND of any of the 2 OUT (one is enough) to Sleeve of the stereo headphone jack.
-PIN3 of both OUT1 and OUT2 are just ignored.

Opposite from what Keith stated a bit above in the thread about line level of the CQ OUT and direct headphone plugin, I am able to plug directly an headphone to this adapter ( DT770 PRO 250ohm).
Or, better use an headphone amplifier.

16

Hi Frenchie, Thanks for the last couple of posts, they made me dig even deeper.

Re: summing; I wasn’t suggesting it was necessary to sum a signal that is already mono but rather that folks with an IEM like say a Lekato MS-1 which always expect an unbalanced 2 channel signal, having switched such a unit to MONO mode would be inadvertently summing opposite phases if they connected the unit directly with a TRS ‘aux’ cable to a monitor out of the CQ. I suspect some people will do this sort of thing. If they were previously using a headphone out on their old mixer it would’ve been OK. Or if previously using an unbalanced monitor out of their old mixer where the RING (right) would float if the output used TS (or TRS with R floating), it would’ve worked too. In that 2nd case they may have then engaged the MONO switch to avoid only heaving things in the left ear originally.

On the Lekato MS-1 the MONO switch position means [Input is still 2Ch unbalanced but sum those 2 channels].
On a Behringer POWERPLAY P2 the MONO switch position = [The input becomes balanced 1ch] but that is more expected given it has an XLR input.
On a Behringer POWERPLAY P1 the MONO switch position = [Input is still 2Ch balanced but sum those 2 channels]
On a Donner EM1 there is no switch but the XLR part of the combi input expects 1ch balanced whilst the TRS part of the combi input expects 2ch unbalanced.

This shows how the meaning of switches/inputs across IEM devices can be confusing also. Sometimes a switch refers to what to do with the signal, other times it describes what type of signal input is expected in the first place.

Re: Floating the COLD/RING in a cable assembly vs shorting it to GND/SLEEVE; this is discussed in super depth here: Balanced output to unbalanced Input, to Float pin 3 or short pin 3 to Grd? | HomeRecording.com. Floating is sometimes better, sometimes not.

Perhaps the CQ manual could have a statement as to whether it is safe to use TS cables for short runs from the monitor outs as a way of unbalancing them to connect to an unbalanced input. For example, a nearby IEM transmitter or amp.

It the answer is no, and people can’t make floating cables, then a Palmer PLI05 connected via TRS to a CQ monitor out with a TS cable on the Palmer’s output would be another way of unbalancing a signal if wanting to not short COLD to GND or have a floating COLD. It would also be a way of keeping the signal balanced for longer before unbalancing it.

If the answer is yes, then for stereo (over 2 monitor outs), an off the shelf adapter like the PRO SIGNAL PSG03104 would give users an unbalanced stereo output to plug their nearby IEM amp/transmitter into.

tl;dr - With an IEM application, it’s easier than ever for people to accidentally connect a balanced 1ch signal to a 2ch unbalanced input and then accidentally sum the 2 phases. That was the point I made a pig’s ear of making in my prior post :-).

Without the right support or prior knowledge, upgrading to 6 monitor outs giving up to 6 people dedicated IEM mixes where they may each own a different IEM system can be a daunting task.

17

My advice comes only from my test and usage.
All I state is working for me and should be working for everyone.
To sum-up:

For 6 mono wired IEM, set it like this:
-GND from the CQ AUX to headphone sleeve
-CQ AUX OUT hot (pin2) to headphone ring and tip.
-forget CQ AUX OUT cold (pin3), floating is OK and work for me.

For 3 stereo wired IEM, set it like this (exemple for OUT 1&2 linked):
-CQ AUXes OUT 1&2 GND to headphone sleeve
-CQ AUXes OUT 1 hot (pin2) to headphone ring
-CQ AUXes OUT 2 hot (pin2) to headphone tip.
-forget both CQ AUXes 1&2 OUT cold (pin3), floating is OK and work for me.

For the use of specific wireless IEM, it depends how the IEM transmitter input is wired, I cannot give any advice of course.

18

Here is a very simple PCB I designed to get one XRL stereo (unbalanced) output from 2 CQ AUXes (linked).
I am working on a new design based on Jack 6.35 instead of XRL.
That new version will authorize both mono and stereo connectivity.

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