Faders not returning to position when switching banks

dLive dLive Troubleshooting
1

Hi,

I have an S7000 surface running firmware v1.9 for past 2 months with absolutely no issues until last week.

When we change fader banks a couple of the channel buss faders go to INF as expected when switching to a bank where they are not assigned, but when returning back to layer A, these faders don’t return to the original position.

For IEM mix bus master faders (we have these on layer B), when switching fader banks the IEM master faders stay on INF and don’t return, so the IEM mix gets muted. Switching back to layer B and reseting the faders back to 0 works, until you change layers again.

It doesn’t seem to matter which layer you go to, the same set of faders always seem to go to INF and not return back.

We do run the OneMix app, but on this occasion no band members were using the app at no time. We don’t run director. I have tried loading a different show file and same issue is present.

We have had no issues prior to this with V1.9.

Im thinking of rolling back to V1.87.
Does anyone havbe any suggestions?

I will download the system log files and take a video of the issue and send to A&H tech support.

Thanks Ash.

2

After we updated ours to 1.9, I noticed that the fader calibration was not right. (not sure if it was wiped or what)
Anyhow, it seems fine after I recalibrated the faders.

3

I performed the fader calibration and motor calibration twice.
The fader issue still present. Reloaded an old show, issue not resolved.

Any other ideas? May be replace or clean faders?

4

Hi Ash,

I’ve had a very similar issue with an SQ console. Two or three faders would go to -infinity when changing layers. I sent the console in for repair and the tech said there was excessive amount of dirt and debris inside the console.

I paid somewhere between $300-500 USD for the repair. It hasn’t failed since. I don’t expose it to extreme environments, but I can’t deny that the SQ hasn’t been outside exposed to possible debris in the air… I’m not sure what your working environment is like.

5

Hi Ash
We have c3500 and we had a stuck fader 2 months ago pre update.
I was told that the whole fader bank had to be replaced.
We paid for a new fader bank I did the install myself everything worked great .
We did the update with no problems ,then last week the same problem happened .
Same bank but different fader.
The console is perfectly clean only 3 years old.
We are very cautious about not leaving anything but the cover on the console
I’ve been wondering if it’s a common problem.

6

We have an S5000 and two C3500’s. All 3 consoles have the same issue. Started prior to 1.9 updates and the update did not solve the problem. A&H is looking at the history logs and a few videos I sent in. Hopefully a solution soon. I will update.

7

Same issue here on an s7000.

8

Same issue on C3500. Anyone see a fix for this yet? Had a major failure in a service today.

9

Same issue here. Recently started happening and is affecting multiple faders on S5000. Board is a permanent install in a church. Covered 95% of the time and has never been been moved or transported since installed.

They want me to send it in for repairs but I am not convinced this will fix the issues. Very frustrating.

10

UPDATE ON OP:
The fader issue started about 6 weeks after updating to 1.90 and still in warranty.
I didn’t really think the firmware update could have been a factor. After 2 fader calibrations the fault persisted.

Sent it in for service, they checked the cables and faders etc. No issues there.
Eventually they updated firmware to 1.93, did a calibration on faders, and all working perfectly since.

11

I am an operator of a C3500, I am not the owner, but I am the only person who has operated it since it was bought in 2017. Back then the firmware version was 1.42
From the beginning I have always taken care of the equipment impeccably, so it should be noted that there has never been any mistreatment or carelessness.
I am very happy with the sound of these mixing machines, but I have to be honest and question the durability of them, especially when compared to other brands on the market.
After about 240 concerts distributed over a period of 3 years and taking care of the material as much as possible, the faders of the C3500 surface began to fail, most of them remaining tremendously inaccurate. I have never had the feeling that there could be a software/hardware fader failure relationship. After requesting a quote from the technical service, it was €800 + VAT (shipping not included) to change all the faders.

My thought is that 240 concerts and taking good care of the material, is not even remotely enough to have to make a change of this magnitude. In any other brand, Digico, Yamaha, this happens, yes, I’m not going to say no, but at least after exceeding the figure of 1000 concerts!

In another order of things, I have also had severe problems with the stage racks, although their operation has been impeccable, they are extremely sensitive to the smoke from the machines that are used to create an atmosphere with the lighting. In the show that I usually operate with the C3500, this type of smoke is used (I clarify that in reasonable quantities and always being of high quality) and also the physical location of the rack is always on one side of the stage and in the back, this way always remains the farthest from the stage. Even so, it seems that the smoke from the show seriously affects the electronics in the racks to the point that it destroys them permanently.
At the end of 2018 a CDM48 was seriously affected by this problem, and all the electronic cards had to be replaced with a high repair cost.
A little later, in 2020, when the pandemic began, the CDM48 system was once again completely unusable due to the same symptom, smoke from the stage that everyone uses for lighting and, consequently, it cost more to repair than to buy a new rack. All of this is tremendously frustrating. The solution was to buy a new CDM64. From then until now, everything seems to work fine.

The point is that in any brand I have worked with, Digico, Yamaha, Roland, Soundcraft, Midas, I have never had this type of problem with smoke from the stage and with much higher numbers of concerts!
My experience may scare other users or potential buyers, and it is not my intention, because both the software and the sound of these tables are excellent, but Allen & Heath, in my humble opinion, should reconsider these weak points, so that in the future nobody will have problems of this type.

12

Hello, all! Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I’m really struggling. We have an S5000 at our church exhibiting this same behavior on about eight faders. If a fader is at +5dB on Layer A, and at -10dB on layer B, moving up to Layer A and back to Layer B will bring the fader on Layer B from -10 to +5. This is quite shocking when it’s the electric guitar in an otherwise balanced mix.

Allen & Heath has offered next to know help. Their response was that I could ship the console back to Georgia, where it would be diagnosed, and then sit and wait for parts, as new consoles were being prioritized for those parts.

This is A&H’s flagship console, and it’s in a church, where it spends 90 percent of the week covered. I expect more from a company as far as standing behind their product. I’m very disappointed, and not at all likely to recommend A&H to friends and colleagues—much less buy more of their products in the future.

For reference, I am running version 1.96 of the firmware, and have run through the fader calibration multiple times. Has anyone else found anything helpful on this??

13

Hi @MartinM

I notice you said ‘ship the console back to Georgia’. Where are you based? We might have other distributors or service centres closer to you?
Ultimately not all of our dealers are in a position to offer advance replacements or on-site servicing, but on the topic of spare parts, I can assure you that we have spare parts available to ship. If there’s been delays, they were due to component shortages, not to prioritising new consoles.

Feel free to open a ticket with our UK team at support.allen-heath.com for advice on the best route to service. Or if you have a ticket already open, PM me the ticket number and I’ll look into it.

14

Thank you very much, Nicola. I am beyond frustrated, as our console is bordering on unusable, and I am about ready to sell this and move on to DiGiCo.

Yes, our sales rep directed me to talk to A&H Support, which I did twice. Whomever I spoke to there gave me the unhelpful advice of shipping the console back to Georgia. He offered no other solution, even when I asked about local service centers or onsite technicians. I’ve since found out that there is an A&H authorized service center about 30 minutes away.

They offered to open a support ticket, but I declined because their solution was so unhelpful. I will give it another try, though.

Is it possible for me to just buy 20 or so fader modules, and take our console to this local center to have them replaced? I’m not super concerned about voiding the warranty, as it hasn’t been helpful so far, and it expires in about six months anyway.

Again, thank you for your help. You’re the first A&H rep (out of three) that has seemed concerned about this.

15

We came up against this issue on the C2500 at our theatre, that fader’s repaired now but this thread got me thinking that the way a faulty fader is handled could be improved upon. The OP mentioned IEM mix bus faders being bumped down to -inf dB because the fader wasn’t moved to the correct position and this is exactly the kind of “oh s**t” moment I had mid show; in my case it was a balcony fill that got turned down on paying customers.
It occurs to me that when a faulty fader doesn’t quite make it to the correct value or doesn’t move at all, the last thing you want the console to do is update that channel/bus with this new (and wrong) value. Wouldn’t it be great if instead, the console alerted the user that the fader didn’t make it, maybe the LED strip could start to flash or there could be some other visual sign that the fader hasn’t moved correctly. Crucially, the console should maintain the correct value and allow the operator to move the fader there if they want to, or ignore it if it doesn’t require adjustment. The user knows there is an issue but can remain confident that balcony fills and IEMs aren’t going to get turned down erroneously, then they can investigate if they’ve got a bad fader after the show.
Not sure how other manufacturers deal with this as I’ve never come up against this issue on anything other than dLive. Maybe others here can think of downsides to what I’m suggesting but it would be great if A&H could come up with a way to solve this.

16

@MartinM

I cannot find your email address in our Support database. Do you have a ticket number I can look up from previous correspondence, and was it through http://support.allen-heath.com/ or an A&H distributor? Your local A&H distributor should be able to assist regardless of where you bought the mixer from, and I’m happy to facilitate that if you reach out to my team directly at http://support.allen-heath.com/ and reference this conversation.

17

Hey, Nicola! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you looking into this. A couple of things…

  1. No, you won’t find me email there for a couple of reasons… First, the person I spoke to offered me two paths forward, neither of which was even close to an option. So, when he offered to open a ticket and start a repair request, I declined. Looking back, I wish I hand’t, because I can see now how that would have been helpful in establishing a history. Second, I’m using my personal email for this forum, but would use my work email for official communication with A&H Support.

  2. I tried to find how to reach out to your team at support.allen-heath.com, but it wasn’t clear to me how to do that. I’d be happy to, I just wasn’t sure where to go after landing there.

Thank you again. It’s been great to hear from someone helpful.

18

@MartinM

Please let us know how this is resolved. I have been having the same issues on a 3 year old board used in a house of worship. And I mean the same exact problem; at least 2 bad faders we un unable to use at Walland then a hand-full more that act up occasionally. It’s honestly hard to keep track of them all. My contact with service about the issue received the same response; re calibrate the fader and if that doesn’t work(which it doesn’t) send in the board.

19

Nicola A&H, snwbrd830, et al,

Our rep—through whom our integrator purchased the console for us—had me create a ticket through https://americanmusicandsound.freshdesk.com/support/home.

He said they will contact me, and, once it’s determined to be an issue with the fader motors, he can get the parts for us fairly quickly.

I will keep this thread updated, as this seems to be more of a widespread issue than I was aware.

20

I too have had problems where the dLive faders set the channels to incorrect values. In my experience, the dLive is particularly sensitive to problems when multi-surface setups have the same channel strip pulled up on two surfaces. It seems that a slightly sticky fader on one surface can cause a channel to jump back when an operator on the other surface is trying to change it.

One tool that some manufacturers use that I think would help with this issue is the use of touch sensitive faders. That allows the surface to detect whether insufficient fader movement is result of operator intervention or not. It seems that would allow more aggressive motor action (overcoming some small stickiness in faders) while not fighting an operator actively moving the fader. I think the actual faders used by dLive have a touch channel, but I am not sure the fader boards can read it.

But I’m pretty certain that other manufacturers successfully do without touch sensitive faders (I doubt X32/M32 have touch sensitive faders, for instance).

I would like to think that there is room for some firmware tweaks to improve fader movement errors - perhaps by running the fader motors more aggressively and/or a (longer) delay before resampling the fader position when switching banks.