A key element in all this is that is not my Qu-7 and none of the people using it have experience with a digital mixer AND the head guy has no interest in understanding it, or learning to take advantage of the many options and tools this mixer offers over the huge analog A&H they previous had. They want it as default as possible - and insist on seeing it and running it as a modern analog mixer. I’m involved because it’s the church my wife attends and she begged me to help address the mess they created for themselves.
I learned I was the third person that had been there to deal with this - the other two were hired to get things dialed in and train . . . pretty sad relative to the many EQ, compression, and routing issues they had created for themselves - as well as cheap speakers to replace far better non-powered ones.
This experience has confirmed, for me, I have no interest in ever investing in the Qu series myself - far too many limitations - Avantis or dLive for me, if it’s my money. Would choose an M32 over Qu series any day.
Well guys - I confirmed what I suspected - I didn’t have time to really get into things, but I think I know why the feedback issues and I do think it is related to FX and a loop being setup.
What I did. Vocal mic patch to local 6. Set up a chorus on FX Rack 3. Chose FX Mix 3 ran the fader up for only that mic, and set the level to 0 for the FX Mix 3 on the master for it. Then I went to LR and raised the FX 3 Return - no chorus. I raised the fader for Fx 3 Send (within the LR mix) and got chorus AND noisy color - the precursor for feedback - and, if I pushed the FX higher, I could get feedback.
This leads me to think that the heart of the feedback issues I’ve wrangled - which were like nothing I’ve dealt with on any system, any mic - and I’ve tamed headsets and lavs to be used cleanly in front of the PA.
The challenge is that someone else had set all this stuff up. In the early stages I ignored the FX as I was new to the board, the manual is pretty thin on the topic and the A&H tutorials weren’t out yet. I’ve also since invested in another set of tutorials - much better than those from A&H - unfortunately - neither covers anything more than choosing the FX mix and adding desired inputs. They don’t cover making sure FX returns are engaged in the desired mixes, nor what and where the FX Sends need to be.
I only had a tiny window of time to check this tonight. My sense is that whoever set things up set up loops that I need to undo AND figure out how to get the FX active without creating a loop.
It shouldn’t be that hard, but trying to figure out someone else’s mess is often tougher than doing it right the first time. I didn’t have the knowledge of this boards FX routing when I first wrangled with this. But, when all the standard ideas weren’t yielding the result to the standard I am used to - with plenty of clarity and a reasonable amount of headroom, I stepped back and remembered creating a feedback loop in my early days on an X32 - by activating returns in two places. I think something similar is going on here. Just going to take some time to sort it out.
I already wrote to you at the beginning of this thread:
But these are really just logical basics, not groundbreaking new insights.
And this has nothing to do with A&H or QU; it happens with any mixing console that allows routing an FX back into itself.
In another thread, you also already wrote about strange feedback problems three months ago, and I think they might still be the same ones.
I think you and this church would be well advised to consult someone who is familiar with current A&H products and can set up basic configurations for their events, which can then be used as needed.
Please, sorry for what might be harsh words, but I think, you haven’t even grasped the basics of the QU, yet you still consider it too much limiting and beneath you.
Instead, you prefer to dream of the even much more complex Avantis or even dLive - or just a X32 …
Thanks for investing so much time with the intent to help. I feel we are wasting each other’s time at this point, so not taking this any further - here.
And, to be clear, no FX returns were in any of the FX mixes.
To be clear, my lack of interest in investing in a QU series mixer goes back to first gen and didn’t change with this fractional improvement in the series. It is a great fit for some users, especially when you are replacing an analog board and people have little comprehension of wise use of many of the options that previously have been the domain of much higher end boards or outboard gear. That’s not me - hasn’t been for a couple of decades.
For what it’s worth, if using an FX rack 1-4 as Send/Return, wouldn’t that require both a send and return level? You have to send signal into the FX and then return that effect to a mix. In my use, I balance the send and return levels.
Exactly correct. The key is in the routing. Being certain not to create a loop internally. You can set the master level of a given FX send one of two ways. Pushing one of the assigned master FX1-4 buttons and choosing a level for that entire FX send with the master fader. OR, setting up a layer with a fader for a particular FX 1-4 send (my preference). I still find it easiest to assign inputs and levels to a given FX mix using the master button and choosing the inputs and setting their individual levels with their faders.
The FX return just needs to be in the intended output mix, be it LR, monitor, IEM, or stream. It is critical that that FX return never be in the Send mix - that creates an internal loop and can lead to unwanted sound - the nature of which is influenced by the inputs and the character of the effect you have that mix for.
As pointed out in other parts of the thread, it really works as FX sends and returns have always worked - what has changed, with digital, is that it is easy to create an internal loop because those sends and returns can be put anywhere, so if a person isn’t careful, or doesn’t really know what they are doing, it can be easy to create a loop, which doesn’t lead to the desired result.
With the Qu5-7, Allen & Heath, in my opinion, made an error in the default setup - they put Sends and Returns together on Layer B. If you keep them there and activate both for a given mix you create a problem. It’s good to show that inputs AND outputs can be on any fader - the beauty of digital - but the manual should cover the critical element of the appropriate placement of those Sends and Returns. Neither the manual, nor their YT tutorial, nor a third party tutorial covers this detail. If you are used to running FX and understand proper routing, you can sort it out. The people and situation I was working with were not used to being clear about those details and can be confused, since they are just pushing buttons and faders to get an effect. They did create a problem in their setup. I was unfamiliar with this mixer, as it was new and only marketing material and a thin manual were available on it. Their EQ and other fundamental elements were so messed up, I didn’t consider a problem with the FX (they had set this up and been fighting it for four months before I came in - with at least four other people tinkering before I entered the picture. Getting the EQ, and other fundamental issues resolved I got them to a place where they were happy with the result. I was not, as I knew it should be even cleaner - which is when I remembered an issue I had created for myself in my early days of digital. I had not looked at this part of their setup since the system, channel and input EQs were so rubbish. At the end of the day, it will be sorted out. It’s not my system and I don’t have ready access to it - so I came here to sort out some of this, so when I do have access, my time would be optimized. Unfortunately, that turned out to be problematic - as often can be in forums. It can be a challenge to really understand a query since we are typically strangers . . . but that is a far larger topic.
For what it’s worth you could create an FX feedback loop with an analog board just the same as a digital board.
If you want to include an FX return into a mix other than the main LR select that mix with the mix button while your in the layer with the FX return, with the mix button selected the FX return channel fader is now the send level into the selected mix, you do need to have the FX return enabled to send to the mix. If that is what you were asking about doing.
Thanks for the comment. The four people that had worked on the mixer before me had set all of it up. In their thinking, this was an analog board, with layers (what are layers?) so decided that layer B was for Reverb, since that is where faders for FX Sends and Returns are, out of the box. They also decided one reverb option covers all things, so set things up in the way that made sense to them, then set up a soft key to be a mute for it all - unmute for reverb, mute for not.
As already stated, the EQ decisions made for system, mix, and channels was so misguided that getting that corrected (SMAART) got us to a place they were happy. I didn’t look at their FX setup simply because I was aiming to leave things as they had them as much as possible. Not my church, not my place to tell them how to do things - unless its creating a problem that compromises their audio - as EQ, compression and gate settings were.
For them, this is an analog board - bought so they have enough faders to run anything they ever might want on the top layer. In reality they don’t use more than four or five inputs most weeks, so a Qu-5, or a CQ 18T, would have more than handled their needs - but they were used to having a big analog board. I wasn’t involved in the decisions - just asked to help out after there were a lot of things not set up in a way that provided clean audio and served their needs.