New to this console, and not the one using it, but trying to help others who have no experience with digital. My main experience is on X32, and CQ18T.
This should be simple. They are intending to use FX 1 on their LR and stream (Mix 7). I press FX1 button in the upper right to choose the inputs I want sent to that FX unit. I then go to LR and make sure FxRtn1 is on in this mix and also in the Mix 7 mixes. What is not clear is which of these should have the FX Snd faders up. I’m used to sending from an input - and not a second send fader also. Trying to make sure I don’t have a loop built in.
I’ve been through the YouTube Tutorials and the manual and I don’t see anything that clarifies this question. I don’t have accees during a practice, etc., where I could just test this.
Appreciate clarification and the thinking behind their approach. To me the FX1-4 buttons are the send and you just choose a mix and add the return - that makes sense me.
I don’t understand what you could mean, but the following applies to the QU as well, just like with the other consoles:
Under no circumstances should you send FX returns (inputs) back into their own FX mixes - unless you want to experiment with very specific feedback effects.
By default, FX returns are therefore not assigned to their own FX mixes, but you could also change this if needed or accidentally.
I don’t have a question about the FX returns, and I aimed to be clear about that. My question has to do with the separate FX sends.
To me, you choose one of the four designated FX 1-4 mixes, by pushing the desired FX button in the upper right - you control the overall level of that FX with the main fader - the same as you control the LR or any other mix chosen, with the main fader. You add whatever inputs you desire layer by layer. This is clear.
Secondly, you choose what mix you want the FX returns to be in and at what level.
This is clear to me and as I’ve run FX on other analog and digital boards for more than three decades.
What is not clear - by default, on layer B, there are faders for FX sends AND FX returns and by default they are there for ALL mixes, whether FX1-4, LR, or Mixes 5-12. I have no idea what these FX Sends are for - or how they should be set. This is what I am trying to clarify.
If you find FX sends, Aux mixes or your Main LR in a layer by default, or have arranged them that way, this fader always corresponds to the rightmost master fader when you have selected the corresponding FX or Mix using the Mix Select buttons.
Note that you can assign in all layers input AND output faders (so also FX returns AND sends), as needed, according to your personal preferences.
So, what I am understanding you to suggest is that: FX returns in a mix is as they always have been - add a particular return as desired to any of the non-FX mixes. The FX Send for each of the FX 1-4 mixes is just another control for the master FX 1-4. So, if you intend to have a particular FX 1-4 in a mix, is it critical to have that FX Send in that mix, as well as the return?
This seems confusing to me. So I have a master send for FX 1 Mix, set when I engage the FX 1 button and set it on that master mix fader. AND, I have a send for the same per other mixes. It sounds like if this send is not engaged in a given mix, then regardless of all the input levels chosen - they are only making it to that FX if the send is engaged within that mix. AND if I want the result of that back in the mix, then the FX return must be turned up (which completely makes sense).
This seems to suggest that either the master fader level set when the FX mix is chosen is immaterial to the level chosen which the mix itself, OR, the FX Send level chosen within a mix is functioning like the other inputs to the FX, but like a master control for them - and in essence bypasses or ignores the master level set, or maybe, more accurately is acting like a sub-group. I guess the only way to figure this out is to just use it to understand what is going on with two different controls for FX sends.
Now you’re starting to confuse me!
To make an FX audible, you obviously need to open several faders.
These typically include the LR channel fader, the FX channel fader, the FX Send master, and finally, in the corresponding target mix, the FX Return.
Please, take also a look at the block diagram (and you might discover a few more confusing things there).
In the image, in addition to the normal signal path to LR (blue), I’ve also drawn the typical signal flow of a post-fader FX to the LR (red) with its four involved faders.
Perhaps this will help more than explaining it in words.
First off - THANK YOU for all your effort in aiming to straighten this out for me. The block diagram completely makes sense.
I think the issue I’m having is I see TWO controls for FX send level: The master we set when we choose an FX Mix (1-4) button and adjust the main mix fader. The second is that set of faders that by default sits next to all the FX Return faders on layer B - which show up on all the non-FX mixes. I don’t understand why there are two SEND controls for a given FX mix (the input faders themselves AND the separate FX send faders that are there by default. The main level, set when we choose the FX mix and move the master fader level is logical to me.
I just need to make some time to run some things through the system and figure it out. The only time, in my experience, I had two controls for a given mix is when one is, in essence a sub group.
At the heart of this is trying to chase down a feedback issue that makes no sense to me - based on the physics of the mic/speaker quality, levels, and positions. The people that set this up have no idea what they are doing and had some things totally screwed up - input and system EQ settings that will give you nightmares and was really creating problems for them. I’ve cleaned all that up - tested a key mic to a new one, tried straight connections, rather than plugging into the floor, etc. But still seeing feedback challenges that I have never seen when all the rest is right - but it reminded me of an early experience I had with the X32 as I was trying to get it understood and had created feedback issues not routing FX correctly. This has felt like that, so I’m aiming to understand what I can’t from all that I have gone over, including the free tutorials and paid for training on the mixer, also.
I will find some time and sort this out with the mixer.
As an aside - I suspect you are an SQ user . . . I’ve had a real interest in the Avantis, but been digging into the dLive S7000, as there is a local event center that just got one and may need some help with it - so I’ve been digging into it - and really hoping I get the chance to get into it.
I’ve already tried to explain that you’ll likely see the same four FX sends there as you do when selecting the four FX mixes as the right master fader.
If you move the master fader in one of the four FX mixes, the corresponding FX send in that layer should also move.
Therefore, you don’t need to switch to an FX mix to change the level or mute an FX send master.
How could you have guessed that? )
I also work with Avantis, so I can prepare you for even more confusion. )
But once the basics are understood, they are at least similar.
I intend to get this sorted out on my next trip over. On my first visit to check on all this, I was already finding key speaking inputs being fed through FX and returns into LR and other mixes. That made no sense for what they intend to have going, and the space is already fairly reverberent - don’t need more for speaking inputs.
I checked out an SQ at one point, but that one the faders felt really flimsy - like no effort to move and I’ve always wanted some resistence. The two S7000 tutorials I’ve been through all made sense to me - but I’ve not run it, so perhaps the many ways of doing similar things would seem confusing. For me, I like options and the ability to do things in a more flexible way that makes sense for me. Keep signal flow clear and it’s not usually a problem, to have many more options.
As already mentioned, you or someone else may have unknowingly sent an FX Return to the same FX.
And that could be the further confusion I mentioned, namely the fifth fader involved in the FX return, LEVEL, which can also be set to pre-fader, which could be quite nasty.
In situations like yours, the best course of action might be to save everything as a precaution, then reset the mixer and start over.
That way, you know exactly what you’ve done and don’t have to analyze what someone else might have done.
A reset makes some sense. Early on I didn’t understand enough about the Qu7 to do that. I do now, but don’t have the time. AND - big and - they use and still want to think like this is an analog mixer. There are many changes that would make things much simpler but they have zero interest in any of it.
I did check for FX returns being doubled or in the wrong places early on and didn’t find any issues there - but as I’ve been clear - the FX sends on the main faders was messing with me, relative to the main mix fader. But, I think, as you stated, I observed last night that if I moved a fader in the “input” area it moved the FX main fader, if that mix was chosen. I will confirm all this for my own peace of mind and understanding. In reality were it my setup, I would put all the main mixes on a fader, so I don’t have to use one fader plus the correct button live. When fader limited I have tended to do this with reasonable groupings on lower layers and controlling them overall with a DCA on the top layer. I love digital . . .
I’m using the Qu-5, and for my FX to my Livestream mix, I’m doing the following:
First choose whichever FX I want in racks 1-4. I have a few options, from the back panel of each effect. I have chosen to return to its own FX bus. This allows send and return per FX unit.
Then I’ll use FX 1-4 to determine what inputs are sending to each and at what level. Then each return is pulled up within the mix I want to have the effect and gives the level I want for the effect.
My specifics, 1 Bucket Brigade (delay), 2 SMR (Hall), 3 Hypabass, 4 ADT (doubler). Each set as I said as I’m thinking it’s FX return.
I do utilize FX rack 5 assigned to mix 5/6 my Livestream mix. This one is SMR (PLATE).
I have assigned my 5 FX to DCA1 for live blending in with my Livestream mix 5/6.
Below is the manual image, one that I used to decide how to set my FX.
Thanks for the post - it confirms all that is already clear - as does that page of the manual.
What it does NOT address are the FX Send faders that are, by default on Layer B of each mix. It seems these are a duplicate for the send level chosen at the master fader level, when one of the four FX Mix buttons is chosen and that master fader level is set. What isn’t clear to me is if you HAVE to have that FX send within the mix - or it’s just a duplicate way of seeing the level for that master send level, while the FX return in a group, LR, monitor or other non-FX mix determines how much of that return is added to that mix.
I’ll take a closer look at my Qu-5 tomorrow evening. Will note down my FX settings, config, work flow, etc. I do know I use all 6 FX racks, 1-5 for just Livestream mix 5/6 stereo and then FX 6 is an insert on LR FOH mix.
Great - I have been surprised how skimpy A&H was with FX options. Most digital experience with X32 and I really valued the variety and especially having some of the better compressor emulations. It was great to tap into the input compression to shave off a bit, then insert a good emulated compressor to do the main work - much as is done in studio work. The drop to six racks is also tough when one was used to eight - and wanted many more. Lol.
Yep understood. I used to need to send my Livestream mix into my Studio One 7 Pro DAW to do my effects. Basically a send and return. There, my stereo input was sent to several parallel buses to add delay and reverb channel, add a sub generation from SSL, a parallel compression channel, then a master compression with SSL G3, Schwabe Digital Gold Clip and limiting with Newfangled Audio Elevate. I needed high LUFS to overcome audio limitations on Zoom Workplace, so I was able to average -9 LUFS with zero overs.
I’m sorry, and I don’t know why, but it seems to me that despite the block diagram, you still haven’t grasped how an FX mix with its 3-5 faders works, even though it’s practically the same on every mixer.
Or perhaps you haven’t yet understood that a layer isn’t a mix, but rather a freely assignable area that you can fill with any faders …
FX Sends don’t necessarily have to be in your Layer B next to the FX Returns.
You can delete them there if it bothers you, or you can move the ones you need to the Layer A, where they’re probably most useful if you want to work with FX.
And: You can not have one of these 4 FX Sends within a mix - each one of them is a mix itself.
Layer B, or A, C, D in my mixer can show whatever faders you want. Go to Setup - Strip Assign and click drag drop whatever you want in the different Layers.
SQuser - I fully understand all you suggest I don’t - which is a part of why you have worked so hard to explain something - while not explaining the detail of the Qu-7 that doesn’t make sense - that I would have trouble explaining to someone, which is my usual perspective. I will invest some time with the mixer this evening to clarify what I’m seeing.
I get and love that I can put any input, output, etc on any layer and in any order I want. No confusion on this.
