Working with different mixes within one scene…if I change the panning from one mix to another, does it affect the entire scene? Same question for gains also. I ask because we live stream our church service and I need a separate mix from the FOH to send out for the live stream. Thanks for any recommendations!
nothing affects any scene… as long you don’t overwrite it
scenes are snapshots, momentary records of values
nothing more
that gives you a defined state your service could start
if you need new start values save a new scene
it is essentially to understand what a scene is, otherwise you could expect the wrong things
after this statement… the panning in the auxiliary mixes is independent from the main pan
but subgroups are not independent
since the gain is located in the preamps it will have influence on all mixes where the input channel is used
@SteffenR
And yet our mixes have different gain on all the inputs okay.
How could that be if the preamps influence all mixes?
oh man… what should I say…
I know that our mixes are not affected by changing the the channel input faders.
If you or one eye knew why what I see is not happening then you really need to say so.
You talk about faders, where Steffen and OP talk about Gain, two completely different things.
All Aux sends made from a channel will be affected by the Gain on the input to that channel.
That your faders are not affecting your mixes is simply because you have your mixes set to Pre, the normal way of doing monitor mixes, as opposed to post wich is usually used for Fx sends and similar.
We’ve all go into the habit of abbreviating “Preamp Gain” to just “Gain”. Probably because it’s been labelled like that on most desks for the 40+ years that I’ve been using them and probably well before that.
In reality, almost everything on the desk has some affect on gain. Gates and compressors alter gain depending on level, eq alters gain of different frequency ranges in different ways. De-essers and multi and compression are combinations of both.
After you edited your post?! (#95241)
I didn’t…
I think somebody from A&H did this, to keep the forum clear…
@valimaties
Did I offend you personal? Then I have to say sorry because it was not my intention.
Please guys - stay on topic!
Of course it’s ok to have opinions and discuss things or maybe even point out where someone may be incorrect, but this community is for sharing knowledge and learning about the products or mixing in general.
Inappropriate and/or personal comments that have nothing to do with the thread will be removed.
There are already some great answers here and I’ll repeat some parts but…
Preamps are digitally controlled analogue stages, with each preamp ‘belonging’ to a socket.
Although the settings for each preamp are usually controlled from a channel in the console (and via scene changes), these settings are not a part of channel processing and occur before AD conversion, so adjustment of preamp gain, 48V and Pad will affect everything (input/output channel or tie line) which is sourced from that socket. You can see this by simply patching the same input socket to multiple input processing channels on the SQ and notice that adjustments to the preamp in one channel will appear matched on the other.
Conversely, you can use socket control in the I/O screen to adjust preamp settings for a socket which has not been patched to an input channel or mix external input.
The fader is indeed a gain stage, but due to there being so many gain stages in a mixer, the word ‘gain’ is almost exclusively used by engineers to refer to preamp gain. Even make-up gain is often referred to as simply ‘make-up’ rather than confuse things. (Mark put that better).
Personally I find it easiest to refer to a fader as always adjusting ‘send level’ (well, except when using GEQ Fader Flip, but lets not get into that!).
Then you can say that a pre-fade aux mix is independent of the main mix, so you can do what you like with the send levels in the main mix with no effect to your aux mix (unlike if you changed the ‘gain’ for a channel).
On the other hand, the send level of a channel in a post-fade aux mix will respect the send level of the same channel in the main mix, or you could say that the actual send level to the post-fade aux mix is a sum of both fader positions e.g. -5dB in the main mix and -10dB in the post-fade mix would result in a -5dB send to the main mix and -15dB send to the aux mix.
You can use either pre or post fade auxes for a live stream mix - post-fade would often be used by a single operator looking after both FOH and the stream, while pre-fade is sometimes the best way to go for a second ‘stream’ engineer to give them full separate control of send levels.
Both engineers would be affected by preamp gain but both have separate trim controls.
Part of the question might also be answered by thinking about difference between signal processing and signal routing.
The processing is all the gate/PEQ/comp which belongs to the channel, and the processed channel is then routed to different mixes with tap-off points allowing for some or all of the processing to be included in the signal being sent.
One way to separate these is that processing is on a per-channel basis (green select key), send levels/assignments/panning/balance are on a per-mix basis (blue mix key).
Each input channel is a single ‘thing’ and each mix is a different combination of input channels, which can all be panned in different ways.
That’s probably enough rambling for the minute, hopefully with some of the other comments it makes some sort of sense.
I’m going to presume this is all because the streaming camera feed is from behind the drummer 
Cheers,
Keith.
Thank you Keith for your cogent voice of knowledge and reason. 50 years of dealing with obvious audio miss understandings have at the top of the list a proper protocol for initially establishing appropriate Pre-Amp Gain. Failure to comprehensively understand the difference between analog VxS digital processing is at the root of the difficulties. This is particularly true when I have a simultaneous Video/FOH audio live capture project. I set up a stereo mix, very similar to the FOH mix, for an audio scratch track to my my Atomos video recorder and will multi-track pre-amp direct stems for external two mixing later back in the studio. Our acoustic Americana performances will on occasion have a wise guy that will play like Casper the ghost at sound check and when the lights come up and fannies are in the seats he morphs into Godzilla with a flat pick. This is where the ability to minimize overshoots at the pre-amp stage can be very important. Overloading the pres, whether intentional or accidental, is a destructive gain stage element that needs to be prevented from the get go.
Hugh
I think its important to focus on the OP’s question… And not digress into other topics. I’m not as proficient in understanding everything as I would like and I’m sure many of the volunteers and other people that get on these forums looking for help are like me or probably have even less experience with all the terms. I mean this in all respect to everyone.
Just trying to help as quickly as possible and make it easy.
@lighthousechurch
Are you speaking about panning like stereo panning for a piano or such?
Your gain setting per channel will affect everything after it, EQ, gate, comp, processing and such, and also affect the send levels. FOH, Mix, Aux, etc.
That being said. What are you trying to accomplish with the panning function?
@LighthouseChurch
@MarkPAman
@Søren Steinmetz
Thanks to Mark and Soren for noting that terminology varies from casual users to full time pros.
Not sure if that is the problem with LighthouseChurch and his question or not.
To be honest I cannot imagine a reason to want to pan anything in the mix like he says.
Us normal users set the preamp gain via the screen and then forget it.
We use the faders up perhaps a little, or down a lot, as needed.
I still assert that my observations of moving faders , which means gain to most of us, does not affect the mix.
Once you set the preamp gain in the screen there is never any reason to change that unless you swap mikes or have a low input (like when we play back CDs with wide ranges of average signal level) that you have to realign with zero on the faders.
And again I assert that using a mix different from the LR outputs will not be affected with the faders which is gain to most of us. But yes it affects the entire scene FOR THAT MIX.
Now if one eye et al want to quibble then take it up with whoever wrote the AH documents and what my eyeballs say is actually happening on our Qu.
I read him as “if I change the (pre amp) gain while in a mix, does that change the gain in other mixes on that channel as well” - to that I dare say it will, since the (pre amp) gain affects everything on that channel.
When he talk about mixes, I read it as the Aux/monitor/fold back mixes and if the panning in the main mix of a channel will change the panning in an Aux/mix as well.
Think he is using a stereo Aux/mix to make a completely different streaming mix fader-level wise, and was curious if the panning on the mainmix would “bleed over” in his stream mix.
And yes, when oldtimers like Mark and I say Gain, we more or less always mean the Pre Amp 
I tend to find a fitting level, and then try not to touch the gain unless it is close to clipping, as I often run Dante and record multitrack direct from the Dante network as well.
@Søren Steinmetz
I read the OP as changing the faders on one of the mix button mixes.
He should not be changing the preamp gain via the screen as that would defintely affect everything.
I do not read aux as mix although technically it may be one.
I read mix to mean the mix on a mix button mix.
And why he needed to pan anything was a mystery; as what was really being panned.
Hopefully @Lighthouse Church will come back and clear things up about what he is doing.
As to his stated problem at the end, our church uses mix7 to the pc via an audio i/f where some magic software with OBS merges the video with audio and the livestream op does other things then sends it to AM & FM radio plus facebook andor utoob for livestream. No panning necesssary. It should also work for him to do it that way.
Think he is using a stereo Aux/mix to make a completely different streaming mix fader-level wise, and was curious if the panning on the mainmix would “bleed over” in his stream mix. ?And yes, when oldtimers like Mark and I say Gain, we more or less always mean the Pre Amp
Panning on the main mix is independent of any panning done on stereo mixes.
Like you when I hear or talk channel gain I always think input pre-amp.
Depending on the type of input sources input levels can change needing gain adjustments
say from sound check to the actual show when the drummer hits harder, the guitar player cranks up, keyboard patch levels, ect. Actually sometimes just a different musician from one day to the next playing the same instrument may need a tweak to the input gain.
It is imperative to understand the importance of an acceptable, dependable Dynamic range in the initial Pre-amp setting. Ideally, when working with session ready pros, a set and leave it protocol is best however that is not an everyday project studio or church A/V reality. A more realistic expectation of the overwhelming majority of amateur performers is for an erratic dynamic range in both directions. To this end only when assignment of appropriate, conservative compression thresh & make up gain at the pre-amp stage enables set and leave it protocols when working with performers without session ready skills.
Hugh
@Hugh
It is quite common in churches for that wide DR to be deliberate.
Unfortuntely schools teach that or they pick it up from older folks when they start orating.
Too bad they dont realize that it makes it harder for people to understand them.
And similar to too many garage bands thing louder is better , church talkers seem to think longer is better.
volounteer brings up a very important point: The DR for a single voice oration needs to be much much wider than for a lead singer in a loud R&R praise band. This is why I always spend a lot of time carefully assessing the specific needs of every channel pre-amp DR. If you do not get this right it will be an up-hill fight managing the balance of your gain structure.
Hugh
Depending on how dynamic the presenter get during their speech and or how their mic technique or lack of changes during the speech you may need to ride the input gain some.
That’s why it’s called “running” sound!
When the orators slowly change we do ride the faders.
But we have some that switch back an forth very quickly.
Ride the faders on them and you will likely have them way up when they start to yell again and feedback erupts.
10dB is plenty of DR for the listener.
What we need is to find a way to compress the bleep out of an 80dB range talker, maybe even higher than 80 when they wander from the pulpit and whisper.
We do heavy compression on the loud parts which helps with feedback problems.
What we really need to do is add UPcompression to the softer parts so we can guarantee that is at the minimum level that maximizes intelligibility at 15dB SNR over background noise and control the DR to ensure we do not have other problems.
It may come down to the honchos deciding what sounds ‘good’ versus the audience and what they say is intelligible.
‘Clean’ sound that is way too low to be understood is worthless.
Or it may be that the dealer just does what they think is good and we get stuck with that , which while good, may not be what we really need.