Will there be some plugin related reaction to the behringer wing?

SQ SQ General Discussions
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Will there be a reaction to the behringer wing and the massive amount of different free EQs and compressors?
Different EQs could be very useful in some situations. Maybe get the upgrades also a bit cheaper?
For a little more than what the upgrades for sq already cost, you can already buy a small waves server with card and get some good deals at Black Friday. But then you can insert into EVERY channel, for example dynamic EQs, mb comps and whatever you want.
The difference gets smaller, if they release additional EQs, that you need to buy again…

Also you can record and Play back up to 48 channels in 48 kHz then, which isn’t possible with the usb Interfaxe.
What do you think about it?

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Hi @nanex,

There are many other consoles available with similarities to the SQ too (channel count, price, features), but of course they are not all exactly the same, and different engineers will prioritise different aspects then choose the one that suits them and their needs.

The overall aim with any of our products is to provide the best possible product for the best possible price. We could have made the SQ out of plastic and it would have been cheaper for example, but you wouldn’t really want to gig with it. On the other hand, we could have given the SQ extra channels/processing/faders and two massive touchscreens, but then it would be a different product… :wink:

Regarding your comments on add-ons/plugins, the processing and modelling in SQ comes from our flagship dLive. This is high end, tour level processing. To take your argument further, there would be no need to buy these, other plugins or some sort of server either, as there are free plugins available which you could run on an old laptop. The reason most engineers don’t do this, is because they’re not the same plugins (even if the gui is the same), and hardware may have an effect on sound quality and/or latency.

We will certainly look into different EQ types and USB options however. Both of these have been mentioned in the feature suggestions section, and are already on the feature request list. So I’ll bump 'em up for you :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Keith.

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The first two questions, when I saw the new behringer wing were: How does it sound and is it reliable?!

That doesn´t mean that I wouldn´t be more than happy to be able to purchase more of the DLive FXs. Everybody is different, but I´d love to add on the Vocalsshifter, Transient Controller and Hypabass to my SQ… it´s getting closer to christmas, so… :wink:

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I’ve always been suspicious of Behringer’s shovelware approach and questionable build quality. There will always be people buying purely on the basis of how much stuff they get for the money (and that’s perfectly fine, everyone’s priorities are different), but I’m a lot happier paying a fair price for known quality. Keith has to be diplomatic, but I doubt A&H is fretting too much about B encroaching on their business.

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I agree with Peterlanders

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I know the X32 for years and it is fully comparable with the SQ. Some features may be found on the SQ only, but some can be found only on the X32 (some I really miss on the SQ). The basic sound might be a little better on the SQ but I like the FX sound of the X32 more. The reliability of the X32 is acceptable, no issues so far with the deviceI worked with over the years. And there are really less reports about issue with the X32 especially when we know that there ar more than 700.000 units out there.
In my opinion the SQ make the gap to the X32 over the last year smaller and at the moment I think the SQ is comparable with the X32, depending on individual needs sometimes some steps ahead, sometimes some steps behind.
If the WING is the consequent evolution of the X32 with all the new features the standing of the SQ on the market will become harder, i think. It looks like Behringer takes their slogan „we hear you“ seriously. There are imho some really clever concepts integrated in one device, even if there are some „lend“ from other products.
So I think that it is up to A&H to reduce the gap to the Behringer WING again.

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I think paying for additional plugins like (Transient Controller) is stupid. SQ even with plugins will not be like Dlive. Somehow plugins are also disputable many people I know complain about them;) And the quality? I have already replacement fader and rotary knob in his annual SQ which played 5 concerts. SQ is a good light board and has nice options. But paying for additional plugins that cost as much as a total of x32 rack makes no sense. You can’t even sell them afterwards and they don’t increase the board’s value. It will be a pity to sell but everything indicates that I will do it;) Sorry for my English

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Wing is still 48K, and how good it does or doesn’t sound has yet to be determined. SQ on the other hand sounds fantastic, and there is a clear difference between the way it sounds and other brands sound which I have used with the same speaker systems.

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Of course, I know, they’re not exactly the same. And that is for a good reason.

And I appreciate, that you try to give us products, which are durable and have better quality, than lot of other brands in the same price range. But to be honest. the SQ is out since about 2 yrs now, I guess. But already has more threads in the troubleshooting page, Than the GLD or dLive, which are out for a much longer time.
Also, I know a lot more people with an X32, than I know with an SQ. But on the other hand, I know more people, that had problems with their SQ, than I know people, that had problems with an X32, which is really sad (mentioning the dead rotary knobs, faders, the unusable USB interface, because of weird noises, even a year after release and so on at the SQ.). These plastic behringer things are durable, so I don’t see the point of your argument, regarding durability. I think A&H is losing that discipline against behringer in that price range. Also, you could buy two x32 for the price of an SQ6. So, if one is broken and you have to send it in, there’s your backup, but that’s not the point of the discussion here. Nobody did question the durability in the first place, but let’s be honest here: SQ had (and maybe still has?) its problems…

I know, that this processing comes from dLive and I always love to use this, when working with a dLive out there. I prefer a dLive over every other desk, just because of the usability and it’s matching my workflow 100%. But the processing on dLive is onboard and you don’t have to pay extra cash for it.
I understand the logic behind selling plugins as an extra add-on, but it is exactly, like idolwawa said.
An SQ with its plugins will never be the same, as a dLive. I see the point of buying the compressors, which are in dLive (even though, the best for vocals of them is still missing on SQ…the LA-2A), because you can use it exactly, as you can use it on the dLive.
But paying for multi band compressors and dynamic EQ’s, when the SQ isn’t fully capable of using them is just plain stupid.
I have so many shows with a dLive, with only 24-32 channels. and I always use least 6-8 instances of dyn8 to get rid of every unwanted frequencies, but still get the pressure and fat sound, that I want to mix.

Running free plugins on an old laptop was not the argument, at the beginning. That’s not really usable in live situations because of stability and latency and you know that of course.
Waves plugins still sound better, than the Plugins on most desks out there, but still they are cheaper. Also you can use them in your DAW, too.
And because you’re speaking about sound quality and latency. I don’t think, it can be too bad with waves plugins. Otherwise nobody with an Digico, Midas Pro or even an SSL Live would use Waves plugins. And I’ve seen a lot of guys doing this.

So what I am questioning, is the price for the Plugins with your ideology behind it. For every company with more than one desk, it’s just ridiculous to pay the plugins for every desk. Nobody, that will buy your desk afterwards will care about it (Well, of course they will, but they won’t pay one penny more for the desk, just because it has plugins…)

When releasing new plugins, the gap will become smaller for a waves rack. As I said, on Black Friday you can get really good deals for REALLY good plugins. And of course you can use them on EVERY desk out there.

Just assuming, there will be a EQ pack and it will be the same price, as the compressors pack (ridiculous 319 USD excl. VAT for 5 plugins). Then you pay almost 1k Euros for 13 plugins, that you can use in ONE console and not on every channel?

Of course nobody already knows, how the wing will sound. But just in case, it will sound good and has all that capabilities, I think A&H will have a bad time, selling the SQ, with their philosophy… I don’t think, the 96k feature will do such a big gap for anyone. There are so much perfectly good studio records, which were recorded in 48kHz. It’s more about the preamps/converters and processing overall, than it is about 48 or 96kHz (Latency is another thing, but the Wing also should do a good job, regarding latency)

Don’t get me wrong, I hate the X/M32 (sold my m32 for a SQ) and love my SQ, the sound with the DX’s and the workflow I have on it (e.g. the workflow, that I have on EVERY A&H desk, thank you for that). I always prefer A&H over Midas, but I think A&H should get back to reality and think again about their pricing and philosophy about the plugins, they sell and react to the competitors…

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I think Nanex opinion is mine too in this place. I don’t have to write more about it

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so, the discussion is dead? Why?

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I agree the plugin pricing is crazy!

The cost of adding the 3 bundles to your console is $577 USD!

A single console, can’t transfer them, can’t use them on anything else, anywhere, just insane.

I’ve been saying this since they were released, pricing is absurd.

I’ve wanted to buy them, but not a chance I’m spending that amount of money so I bought the Waves-SQ card instead and have been happily using literally 100’s of plugins I already own (and bought for dirt cheap, AND use on many other consoles and DAW’s).

A&H really needs to reevaluate these prices. Even dropping it to half of what it is would be more reasonable. For those who invested before a large price drop, they get whatever the next batch of plugins are for free to level it out and make it fair to early adopters.

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@keith ?

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So far out of the 30+ x32 users I have met/worked with, only 3 had never had any problems with the console, and 11 of then have changed to either SQ or Yamaha instead.

Not knowing the lates version of x32, the first several batches was based on the cheapest pcb you normally find in electronics classes at elementary schools.
And the components I have seen used are in most cases a mix between B and C grade, compared to the M32’s A and B grade (not to mention way better PCB quality)

So far I have not taken a look at the components nor the PCB in my own SQ, but at some point I might.

Pricing I agree about the bundles, and so far I have not missed them at all.

Anyway my first thoughts when they introduced the Wing: “hope it is more stable than the x32”, “wonder how the sound quality is”

The way they present the workflow I wpould say it is not a beginner friendly console, for that I much prefer the SQ/GLD or any Yamaha. :wink:

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My personal experience is completely different. Not any issue with theX32 or M32 so far. I bought my X32 right after the first devices were available. And I think that more than 700.000 sold devices will have the one or the other issue. But if the quality would be that bad as you say there would be never so much devices sold and, especially because it is related to Behringer, there would be a large shitstorm in „the net“.
Regarding the workflow, I was all the time able to tell newbies within some minutes how it works. And it is designed similar to the Yamaha workflow back in those years, one of the big digital mixer manufacturers.
After getting the information about the SQ two years ago, I thought it would be a big step forward. Ok there would be some things missing with version 1, I thought, but now, after two years there are a lot of features of the X32 are still missing on the SQ. And the plugin strategy is not something which makes it better. Even the dLive, which is nevertheless a completely other beast than the SQ or X32, can learn some tricks which are available on the X32. First of all the expander would be fine.
So, counting all things together, I am disappointed by the SQ and I will replace it with the WING sooner or later.

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Hi All,

This has become a very interesting thread - it’s really useful to have this feedback and to hear your opinions on the SQ add-ons along with their pricing and separation (in cost) from the SQ hardware and free firmware updates.
It is something we have never done before, and contrary to some of the posts here, has been very well received worldwide.
The reason we did it is because:

  1. Software is not free (we tried seeing if developers would do it, but apparently they have to eat or something…)
  2. Not everybody needs the extra processing and FX that are offered.
    We have thousands of use cases where an SQ is installed in a house of worship or being used for AV for example, where the owner/engineer/venue may never want an accurate model of a 1970’s compressor.
    So for those customers - it makes sense not to pay the extra for something they’ll never use, then for others, the option is there.
    This hasn’t been the case in the past, with dLive the cost of the DEEP add-ons is included in the total.
    Price-wise, as with most things, I would say you get what you pay for and nobody is forcing anyone to purchase anything. As a manufacturer, we offer a product, and whether or not you decide it’s worth it is completely up to you!
    If the point being made was that there are two products (software or hardware) that are identical yet one cost more, then I’d understand, but I don’t believe that to be the case.

Thanks,
Keith.

1 Like
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We need more plugs, a texture like gate and better delays.
Both have been suggested in the relevant sub-forum.
Txs.

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Hello, Keith,

I understand your reasoning. Really. And I am behind it myself.

A big problem for me as the owner of dLive and SQ consoles is that many technicians keep asking me about these license terms.
A lot of colleagues don’t like this approach, for a very simple reason:
other manufacturers in this price category do not have such license models. Don’t these software developers have to eat anything? Or are there possibly other billing methods?
The customers who buy inexpensive mixing consoles are usually very anxious to spend as little money as possible. That’s unfortunately the case, and that’s why these discussions are unlikely to stop. Unless the other manufacturers do the same at some point.

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@KeithJ

Just in reply to your message above

  1. I don’t think anyone expects software to be free, people will gladly pay. Firmware is an exception as bugs and features will be added as time goes on. But we’re talking about add-ons so…

  2. Also agree, someone buying an SQ for anything but live music obviously has no need for these DEEP or RackFX plugins. I agree with the additional costs for those who do want to use them, but this is where the issue lots of us have is, and that’s the pricing.

The best comparison I could make, is what is probably the most used plugin in the live world, Waves C6. A plugin comparable in the SQ series is the MultiBD.

Waves C6:
Currently $44
USB license follows you anywhere
Can run 100+ instances
Mac, PC, Avid Venues, any Madi equipped console, any SoundGrid compatible interface.
4 bands, plus 2 floating bands

Allen & Heath MultiBD:
Currently $89
Runs on a single console only
Maxes out at 8 instances (leaving you no reverb/delay, so realistically 4 instances)
4 bands only

There isn’t really a way to put this into a better perspective than that comparison. MultiBD cost more than twice the amount, but has very serious limitations compared to the cheaper (and better) option. You can apply this logic to basically any of the DEEP or RackFX plugin.

$89 is just too much, and there’s really no denying it. The pricing doesn’t match up to the product and what the current market dictates.

SQ plugin pricing realistically should be changed to this:
Anything $109 = $39
Anything $89 = $29
Anything $59 = $19

While you can argue “if you don’t like the pricing, don’t buy them”. Many of us bought this console for it’s amazing features, and one of those was the promise of “DEEP & RackFX” being ported for purchase in the future. But the pricing structure definitely had me feeling like a “bait and switch” was pulled, to the point I skipped everything and bought a Waves SQ card instead.

With all that said, I do love this console and am thankful for all the work and advancements you and your team have created. But I have a very serious gripe about the plugin pricing. If these were brought down to a reasonable cost, I would gladly purchase them even though I have the Waves SQ already, but where they stand right now, not a chance.

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@KeithJ
It would be interesting to hear your reply.