Discounts on MixApp?

iLive Archived iLive Discussions
21

Jens -

I agree about the inability to get to the fx parameters, though I can live without that feature. The tap button does gets my use, but things such as scene save/recall are non-issues for me.

I think the main features that makes me a “fanboy” of this app are the ability to set up the 2 16 channel “custom strip layers” (the main feature, IMO) and the split screen. I find the ability to use the “sends on fader” from both the input and output perspective useful, as well as the channel delays. I don’t know which other apps have these features.

It boils down to which features are the “must have” for you. For me, it’s the custom strips. I’ll admit I have faith the parameter control for fx is in the pipeline, as well as scene manipulation.

Something I’d hope to see is the ability to turn features on/off, to increase performance for the ones the user considers essential…

Regards,

Tim Tyler

Detonator Sound

Richmond, Va USA

T112/48 R72/32 laptop iPad Dir-815 Dante

22

The fact that I’m disappointed does not mean I won’t be happy if some or all of the features I want will be implemented. But how will the devs know what “we” want, if we don’t spell out what we don’t like? Of course I hope the system I put my faith and my money into will be improved even more over time. And the fact that we paid a buttload of money for the MixApp (that’s buttload in comparison of the free apps from all the competitors) should be a reason for the devs to go at least as far as the other apps go in terms of features. If Behringer can do effects for free on an app for a mixer costing a third of an iLive T system, we should have that too for our >80 bucks, right? That’s all I’m saying…

23
quote:
Originally posted by Detonator

Shuahughes -

Perhaps you could fill us in with YOUR experience with the Roland m200-i app… I couldn’t find a download for this app, would you be so kind to provide a link… Maybe you could direct us to a FULL listing of the capabilities of the app, I’ve searched & just got some sketchy info, no details, just a few general parameters… (I was told by Sweetwater here in the US that the consoles haven’t been shipped yet…)

A very reasonable request.

The roland app is new, so details may be hard to find.

Note that I haven’t personally used it.

Mike Sessler at https://churchtecharts.org/ did a fair review of the Roland M200i, Behringer X32 and PreSonus 24.4.2

It is in 4 parts:

https://churchtecharts.org/home/2012/12/14/digital-mixer-comparison-m200i-x32-studiolive-2442pt1

https://churchtecharts.org/home/2012/12/17/digital-mixer-comparison-m200i-x32-studiolive-2442pt2

https://churchtecharts.org/home/2012/12/15/digital-mixer-comparison-m200i-x32-studiolive-2442pt3

https://churchtecharts.org/home/2012/12/21/digital-mixer-comparison-m200i-x32-studiolive-2442pt-4

Part 3 is the iPad app reviews.

Note that his review is targeted at churches getting into the smaller format digital mixer world. He didn’t include the iLive. Possibly because he hasn’t fully realised the power of running iLive without a surface.

For the price point, all of these mixers compete directly again an iDR16 or iDR32 with no surface.

Also, the Roland and PreSonus could be setup beside the stage much like the MixRack, and then run by the iPad from FOH, and the footprint isn’t huge, so really the “not needing the surface” argument doesn’t really apply as the price is similar.

the Roland M200i app offers HeadAmp control including gain, 48V etc.

It includes scene management, input / output patching control.

Control of FX parameters etc.

Now obviously, if you need more channels then the 24 to 32 channels these desks offer, then you are into much bigger dollars, looking to add stage racks and bigger surfaces.

So for a big rig, the cost of the MixPad app is totally justified.

I agree that iLive is choosing not to put the app cost into the MixRack prices.

But these competing small format desks have free apps and still come in below the iLive iDR pricing. Obviously this could easily lead into a “you pay for what you get” debate, and how the quality of the iLive is better than those compared here.

I totally agree, the iLive is awesome, it offers amazing quality for the price point to a small church who are happy to run without a surface.

But to this small church market, when comparing against the competition in this market, the iLive app looks way over priced. Especially seeing as the app may need to be loaded for several different volunteers iPads.

If you are a full time sound guy, large rental company, or big church with a paid permanent FOH engineer, the MixPad app price is easily justified and makes sense.

Maybe this is the only market A&H really care about…if so fair enough.

I’m just voicing the impression of the little guy, who loves the product and is actively promoting small churches in my community to install iLive as an amazingly flexible solution that offers incredible quality and great ease of use for volunteers!

Blessings,

Josh

24
quote:
Originally posted by Jens Droessler

The fact that I’m disappointed does not mean I won’t be happy if some or all of the features I want will be implemented. But how will the devs know what “we” want, if we don’t spell out what we don’t like? Of course I hope the system I put my faith and my money into will be improved even more over time. And the fact that we paid a buttload of money for the MixApp (that’s buttload in comparison of the free apps from all the competitors) should be a reason for the devs to go at least as far as the other apps go in terms of features. If Behringer can do effects for free on an app for a mixer costing a third of an iLive T system, we should have that too for our >80 bucks, right? That’s all I’m saying…

Someone further up said that ‘price = quality’. That’s certainly the case for A&H, and certainly the case for Behringer. Remember that the A&H software (both editors and smartphone Apps) kills some of their own sales (surfaces and PL-ANET units).

Having used Behringer digital mixers in the past, for 3rd parties I hasten to add, and seen them fail (something that’s never happened in my experience with A&H equipment), I feel that +/- €80 for the full MixPad and €7 for the monitoring version is a very good deal. Plus, because you pay for it, you value it and have every right to have your say in its maintenance and further development.

A&H are very reactive; make your feelings known (for example about the lack of editing for FX, which I agree with) and you can be sure that they’ll listen to their customers … Behringer? Hmm - not so sure and I certainly don’t consider them to be a ‘professional’ level sound equipment manufacturer.

www.pianodome.nl

3D PianoShow!

25
quote:
Originally posted by guyharris
Quote:
Behringer? Hmm - not so sure and I certainly don't consider them to be a 'professional' level sound equipment manufacturer.

Maybe so, but that doesn’t stop the market from being severely hit by the x32-wave… this is a direct competitor in the GLD-market.

So, I bet that if A&H want to survive this they will need an app for GLD soon…(UPDATE: A&H just released their GLD app :smiley: , way to go!) plus better marketing… A&H iLive has the right to be considered high quality. Even Behringer manages to shift the perception of their brand.

A result from this development might be that the iLive-app’s functionality is also broadened to keep things into perspective, but probably not the other way round :frowning_face:

Wouter

IDR32, R72, Dante, Mixpad

laptop, TP-Link TL-WR1043ND</font id=“size1”></font id=“navy”>

26

The Roland M200i iPad app is now on the app store:

and here’s the Roland page:

https://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100117

Now, to be clear, I am still recommending iLive to my church groups.

I just wish A&H would fix a few key issues:

MixPad - overpriced, scene control, head amp control, patching control, Dual MixRack

Tweak - GUI is horrible, basic features are great, just horrible layout

Editor - again features are great, but the GUI is so ugly. It feels like something from the 90s

the way the windows open, close, resize and scroll is not user friendly or fast

Also nice to have on the MixPad app would be SMAART type tools.

Either using the iPad mic, or using an existing measurement accessory.

The RTA is useful for feedback, but not system tuning.

the iPad and iPhone apps like AudioTools or Signal Scope are incredible, if these sort of tools can be integrated into MixPad than a premium price is definitely justified.

Note: PreSonus has introduced some SMAART tools into it’s StudioLive editor software.

27
quote:
Originally posted by guyharris

Remember that the A&H software (both editors and smartphone Apps) kills some of their own sales (surfaces and PL-ANET units).

</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>

Well, the PC editor is free and it is full-featured, while the iPad app comes at a high price for this kind of app (It seems all the competitors apps are free). I don’t think the MixApp can kill surface sales big time, but maybe PL devices sales, at least for “mobile” use (like giving each musician a PL device). OTOH you can “idiot proof” an installation with the PL devices, but not with the MixApp. So I guess it’s not that harmful (the free PC editor on a windows tablet PC would be more harmful, I think). It’s just my point of view, not a complaint about the price.

quote:
Having used Behringer digital mixers in the past, for 3rd parties I hasten to add, and seen them fail (something that's never happened in my experience with A&H equipment)

To be honest, my first digital mixer was the Behringer DDX3216. It never had any problems, no hickups, no freezes, no nothing. The only reason I sold it was for reputations sake (I got an Yamaha 01v96 instead, big mistake…). I also have yet to hear about critical fails of a X32, in fact I hear only good things about the reliability. But it’s kind of a new product, so there is no way to tell about long term reliability yet. In addition to that, I once had a really bad problem with my T80/iDR32 system, which jammed an event. One of the worst things that can happen to a technical provider like me. My other system, T112/iDR48, never had any problems. So it’s not that easy, there is no “Behringer bad, A&H good”, it’s all gray…

quote:
make your feelings known (for example about the lack of editing for FX, which I agree with) and you can be sure that they'll listen to their customers ...

I thought, that’s what I’m doing here…

quote:
Behringer? Hmm - not so sure and I certainly don't consider them to be a 'professional' level sound equipment manufacturer.

It doesn’t matter what you or I think about that. The question is: “Do they get the job done?” And it seems that way, as the customers seem to be pretty happy with the X32 (No, I surely won’t sell my iLives to get X32s! I know why I decided for iLive and I stand by that decision!). Also, the fact that you don’t see Behringer as a professional level equipment manufacturer makes it even worse: An amateur level equipment company offers features the professionals don’t offer (not to mention for free)? You see where I’m going? :smiley:

28
quote:
Originally posted by shuahughes

The Roland M200i iPad app is now on the app store:

and here’s the Roland page:

https://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100117

Now, to be clear, I am still recommending iLive to my church groups.

I just wish A&H would fix a few key issues:

MixPad - overpriced, scene control, head amp control, patching control, Dual MixRack

Tweak - GUI is horrible, basic features are great, just horrible layout

Editor - again features are great, but the GUI is so ugly. It feels like something from the 90s

the way the windows open, close, resize and scroll is not user friendly or fast

Also nice to have on the MixPad app would be SMAART type tools.

Either using the iPad mic, or using an existing measurement accessory.

The RTA is useful for feedback, but not system tuning.

the iPad and iPhone apps like AudioTools or Signal Scope are incredible, if these sort of tools can be integrated into MixPad than a premium price is definitely justified.

Note: PreSonus has introduced some SMAART tools into it’s StudioLive editor software.

I am a little wary of piling all that code in the iPad ap and using it for other thing rather than mixing at the same time. If I want to run smaart I would rather have it running on a laptop.

Now I am with you on some kind of rudimentary scene control and patching for the iPad.

I also agree the editor needs a GUI overhaul. It needs to become multitouch capable as well so it works better with a touch screen computers.

112T/IDR48/IDR16

29

Will the iPad app be free in the future to match GLD’s free app?

30
quote:
Originally posted by clarocque

Will the iPad app be free in the future to match GLD’s free app?

I don’t think so. If that would happen I’d definitely expect a refund!

31

Well I would rather see it become free so I don’t have to keep buying it for all my engineers’s iPads to come. I wouldn’t expect a refund for my previous purchase…

32

I tend to agree with what was written by shuahughes.

I also consider myself as a huge promotor for A&H iLive.

If iLive, just like GLD, can keep up with the market, then I’ll definitely continue to support the platform by all means!

The architecture is still visionary, with the mixer in the stageblock and only control going over the wire!

Especially if this is paired with apps on par with the competition, and hopefully someday a renewed scene management.

I honestly think that A&H could still hugely benefit from crowdsourcing. Why not allow external developers to help with a new editor UI?

Wouter

IDR32, R72, Dante, Mixpad

laptop, TP-Link TL-WR1043ND</font id=“size1”></font id=“navy”>

33

Will the iPad app be free in the future to match GLD’s free app?

You guys are not getting it!!!

Price = Value = Price

I think you need to go back to school to learn economics.

The iPad app for the GLD can be free as it will not impact console sales at all.

If you own a GLD and you get the iPad app, then it doesn’t reduce future sales for A&H because you still have to take the GLD to the gig. It increases the value of the GLD but it doesn’t sacrifice sales.

BUT…

If you own an IDR32 rack, then you might decide you don’t need an iLive surface for most of your gigs and you can get away just using the Laptop and an iPad or two and renting a surface if you need it. That option makes the iPad app EXTREMELY valuable as it potentially saves you many thousands of dollars.

You don’t get that same value with the GLD, the Roland, the , LS9, PM5d or just about every single digital mixer out there because you always need to buy a box with faders on it with those systems OR the mixer is the box with faders on it. That is a fundamental difference with the iLive that makes it so exceedingly awesome.

The iLive is one of the few systems on the market where not buying a surface is a genuine option.

That means, unlike all those competing systems, the MixPad app has to be commercially viable as a standalone product. Its not a giveaway and never will be unless A&H were mad. Consider yourself lucky that the Laptop software is free!!!

Think of it from A&H’s point of view.

If the iPad software was free, it would reduce the revenue they make from surface sales. Why on earth would they spend loads of money building a product that is going to make their business less profitable? The solution is to put a high price on the iPad software to recover the development cost and also make the surfaces look more attractive.

Its not rocket science guys its economics 101.

Sorry for the ranting today, but the forum seems to be filled with particularly stupid posts.

34

I get your point MillSt, but you have missed mine.

The iPad app being free only sacrifices surface sales if you have that size budget to begin with.

I’m talking from the perspective of someone buying multiple small sub 10K systems.

I can get the Roland M200i so I have surface and iPad.

Or a PreSonus Studio Live but have to have a Laptop connected all the time…yuck

Or an X32, or an analogue system etc…

An iDR16 or iDR32 with Laptop setup and iPad control is an amazing solution.

It would compare much more favourably if the iPad app were cheaper and had these extra features.

A&H may loose a few surface sales, but my experience says those who want a surface still want a surface. The iPad or Laptop only market is different.

Maybe some surface owners do a small gig here and there without the surface, but they will still own one.

By not having the app free or cheaper, and adding the features I listed above, A&H are missing out on what I believe could be a big market. A much more significant chunk then the few potential surface sales missed. Apple could have worried about iPad sales eating into their laptop sales, but instead they made an amazing iPad product which way more then offset the decrease in Laptops sold!

You keep saying you get what you pay for.

That’s true, but I don’t believe you understand what my market segment is looking for.

A&H have the opportunity to take on the small market head on and thrash the opposition if only they would sieze the moment.

35

If that’s the case then some of these new big touchscreen all in one PC’s could take away some surface sales

but wouldn’t it be better to up idr sales by giving away the app also some manufactures bringing out mini budget consoles where the ipad is the control surface wouldnt these small acts be better off with an idr16 and a free ipad app

Karl

36
quote:
Originally posted by shuahughes

I get your point MillSt, but you have missed mine.

Completely agree again.

iDR is visionary unlike any other console system but that fact is completely unknown to the market!

Let a fixed iDR-32 or iDR-24 without a surface be a really really good alternative in the sub 4000€ market. iDR’s are not overpriced I think, but companies on a budget should at least consider these consoles!

Provide a GLD-like surface for a sub-2700€ price on par with… yes X32! (I’m sorry if I name this one sometimes, but it’s bound to become a standard , whether we want this or not.)

That’s a challenge maybe but to be honest, explaining everybody that a thing that even doesn’t process any sound but just controls the mixer has to cost three times as much as a lowcost mixer with the sound processing builtin is even a bigger challenge. Large companies will like to have more than one controller anyway.

Adapt the firmware so at least two controllers can be used simultaneous to accomodate FOH-Monitor setups with one iDR. This is one of the amaaaaaaazing strenghts of the series!! This is one of the key differentiators!

Provide the tools in the firmware to make the best use of this.

Market the thing as waaaay better quality than any other console, and certainly waaaaaaay more flexible!! Which it is!

I’ve never ever seen or heard this in the A&H marketing, which is a shame. I think all users agree on the flexibility. For some of us, it’s even the main reason why we ever invested in iLive in the first place.

Wouter

IDR32, R72, Dante, Mixpad

laptop, TP-Link TL-WR1043ND</font id=“size1”></font id=“navy”>

37

+1

quote:

Adapt the firmware so at least two controllers can be used simultaneous to accomodate FOH-Monitor setups with one iDR.

</font id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”>

T112, R72, iDR48 w/M-DANTE (2), PL10, MixPad, Editor

MacBook Pro, Mac Mini

Lion/Logic Pro/PT10

All latest versions/firmware

38

The iPad app being free only sacrifices surface sales if you have that size budget to begin with.

I don’t agree, this is the same as saying the rack is too expensive.

Lets use some round numbers, but lets say…

If a Rack costs $2900 and the iPad software costs $100 then a combo costs $3000, then what you are saying is the rack is overpriced by $100 and should really be priced at $2900 because the mixpad software is not worth anything.

If the rack cost $3100 and came with a free iPad license, you would still buy it. In the scheme of things, its nothing. Its just your perception of value is being distorted by other manufacturers who offer free software. What they are saying is that by offering free software, their software is worth nothing and has no value.

The iLive is so far and away advanced over the other systems you mention that it can’t even be compared. The minuscule cost of the iPad software relative to the rack cost and your total investment in sound equipment in comparison with the competitive products is nothing.

If people want to buy x32’s and rolands, by all means go for it but I suspect these are people who are being ‘sold’ a product as opposed to people who are making good decisions themselves.

There are far more considerations in console purchase than price, one major thing is upgrade path. The Roland and X32 don’t really have scalability and upgrade paths while the iLives do. If you don’t need an upgrade path thats fine, but if you do, its worth paying a little more for.

The A&H guys aren’t stupid, pricing is well thought out, competitive and relative and has incentives for moving up the upgrade path.

If you price something cheap, then it implies it is lower quality.

I would be pretty upset if my considerable investment in consoles was compared to the X32 and roland line and marketed to the same people that buy those systems. I don’t think A&H are in the volume consumer MI market. They are in the next tier up marketing quality, reliability and professionalism in the mid to high end market.

The other consideration is the iLive is fairly complex and high end beast. I’m not sure A&H would want the support overhead of dealing with a whole pile of MI users who do something stupid and make mistakes setting up their systems resulting in a poor perception of the product. There have been quite a few posts over the last few weeks by users who clearly have no idea what they are doing and probably should not have been sold an iLive. Maybe they would have been better off with a roland or X32 that has less complexity and flexibility and less possibility of doing something stupid.

I’m not trying to justify being ripped off, but I don’t feel ripped off. The prices are very reasonable for the product quality and support being offered. As soon as you get into discounting, you alter the entire perception of your products.

A good example is Samsung, they used to be known as a low cost, low quality manufacturer. Then they started improving quality putting their prices up and it changed the whole perception of the brand.

Price says a lot about a brand.

39

You are assuming only one iPad license is required.

I agree that it depends on wether A&H want to be in the smaller market.

40
quote:
Originally posted by millst

Lets use some round numbers, but lets say…

If a Rack costs $2900 and the iPad software costs $100 then a combo costs $3000, then what you are saying is the rack is overpriced by $100 and should really be priced at $2900 because the mixpad software is not worth anything.

Mmm, strange reasoning. I’d propose the opposite. Raising the price of the MixRack (which, if the total price level reflects value, is underpriced actually) and combining that with a near-zero cost app could actually raise sales.

Why? Not because there’s no value in the app, on the contrary. Because, you want your guest engineers to be able to also use the app, without starting to rent out iPads alongside your iLive gear. And yes, because dumb customers should be ‘sold’ iLive. If those dumb customers see a non-free app, then dumb customers are indeed scared away, which is a pity. So, yes, you have to fool dumb customers by including the app’s price or a multitude of that in the MixRack’s price :smiley:

And poor guest engineers? They will only invest in such an app if iLive were the standard console. Unfortunately, that 's not the case at this moment.

On the other hand. A&H has been quite kind with all of us, to give us a multiband and dynamic EQ for free. Never expected that…

Wouter

IDR32, R72, Dante, Mixpad

laptop, TP-Link TL-WR1043ND</font id=“size1”></font id=“navy”>